New Transit Funding Sources

[innsertnamehere]

1.8 is GTA region, its 2.8 in the entire province. early years won't use the full 2 billion anyway as its mostly design. full use of funds likely won't come until around 2018 or 2019, presuming july 1st 2014 tax implementation.

debt is so cheap right now anyway, it would have little factor on full length costs.

 

[TOareaFan]

1.8 is GTA region, its 2.8 in the entire province. early years won't use the full 2 billion anyway as its mostly design. full use of funds likely won't come until around 2018 or 2019, presuming july 1st 2014 tax implementation.

debt is so cheap right now anyway, it would have little factor on full length costs.

Debt is cheap....interest rate wise....their $8billion at 3% would still chew up $250 mil or so a year.....$8billion is the amount they propose to borrow during the phase in.

 

[innsertnamehere]

with inflation at 2% it would be an effective 1% interest rate, adding $20 million annually in additional costs for that years expenditures of $2 billion.

 

[TOareaFan]

with inflation at 2% it would be an effective 1% interest rate, adding $20 million annually in additional costs for that years expenditures of $2 billion.

That is one way to look at it....another is that they are not likely to borrow at 3% either....rates are being held artificially low at the minute and by they time they are actually in the market for that money rates are likely to be higher.

Whatever it is.....it is a significant chunk of change that is being syphoned off of the annual amounts generated by the new taxation.

 

[TOareaFan]

public not liking the Transit Panel's recommendations.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...ax_tarnishes_golden_transit_funding_plan.html

 

[WislaHD]

If they don't like the gas hike, then I am fine with tolling our highways for non-Toronto residents.

(I invite someone to convince me otherwise though)

 

[innsertnamehere]

A lot of people support tolls actually, which is surprising. I just don't think they realize how expensive they are to implement.

I wonder what support is overall for "new taxes to pay for transit", instead of specifying one single form of tax ("do you support a gas tax hike?", "do you support an HST hike"?, etc.) as well.


and as always, this is level of support from people with landline telephones, and who are willing to sit through and answer the questions. Demographics are never fully correct, and tend to bend towards the conservative side of things.

 

[TOareaFan]

A lot of people support tolls actually, which is surprising. I just don't think they realize how expensive they are to implement.

I wonder what support is overall for "new taxes to pay for transit", instead of specifying one single form of tax ("do you support a gas tax hike?", "do you support an HST hike"?, etc.) as well.


and as always, this is level of support from people with landline telephones, and who are willing to sit through and answer the questions. Demographics are never fully correct, and tend to bend towards the conservative side of things.

Earlier polls that just asked the generic "do you support raising insert one {taxes/tolls/fees} to pay for transit" got much higher support. When the question gets more specific, the numbers drop as people start to measure the impact on them personally. It is captured quite nicely in this quote from the article;

Not surprisingly, residents were more likely to approve of taxes that won’t directly affect their household. Sixty per cent approved of a 0.5 per cent corporate income tax hike. Sixty-two per cent agreed with Golden’s suggestion to divert $80 million of the HST money the government already collects on fuel sales to a dedicated transit fund.

 

[JasonParis]

These polls also need to ask, "do you support sitting in an average of 30 minutes longer traffic within 10 years as part of your commute if we do nothing?"

 

[TOareaFan]

These polls also need to ask, "do you support sitting in an average of 30 minutes longer traffic within 10 years as part of your commute if we do nothing?"

in essence they do....what they show is that the majority support action and support raising money for that action....the support just falls, dramatically, when the action costs them directly and individually.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

in essence they do....what they show is that the majority support action and support raising money for that action....the support just falls, dramatically, when the action costs them directly and individually.

Or to put it more pointedly, some people still believe you get something for nothing. Some of the them probably even think Rob Ford built a subway for free.

People simply like to bitch about what we don't have while expecting it to be handed on a silver plate. I don't really WANT to pay more for gas but I also now that Vancouverites pay something like 10-cents a litre on their gas to fund transit. People love going on about how our subway system is this silly little U-shaped thing with a line but when I go to New York their subway goes everywhere! Well, that's because they have payroll taxes and every way in and out of Manhattan is tolled.

Basically, someone has to pick some tools and pass them no matter what a poll shows. Then stuff will getting built and people will get used to it. Asking them over and over and over is just pointless now. Of course it means a Hudak-Ford type can swoop in and tell them theyr'e totally right, but then nothing will get built and they can get used to that, which won't take long.

 

[TOareaFan]

Or to put it more pointedly, some people still believe you get something for nothing. Some of the them probably even think Rob Ford built a subway for free.

People simply like to bitch about what we don't have while expecting it to be handed on a silver plate. I don't really WANT to pay more for gas but I also now that Vancouverites pay something like 10-cents a litre on their gas to fund transit. People love going on about how our subway system is this silly little U-shaped thing with a line but when I go to New York their subway goes everywhere! Well, that's because they have payroll taxes and every way in and out of Manhattan is tolled.

Basically, someone has to pick some tools and pass them no matter what a poll shows. Then stuff will getting built and people will get used to it. Asking them over and over and over is just pointless now. Of course it means a Hudak-Ford type can swoop in and tell them theyr'e totally right, but then nothing will get built and they can get used to that, which won't take long.

Unfortunately, what the polls show is that the "some" I have highlighted is the vast majority....and any/all politicians fear that one poll that we call an election.

 

[sixrings]

Or to put it more pointedly, some people still believe you get something for nothing. Some of the them probably even think Rob Ford built a subway for free..

This is why I am supportive of cancelling all day kindergarten. Its hard to take away a service once its offered and people have some how got around it for so many years. That's a lot of money that could go to transit. By no way am I saying don't have a gas tax or don't toll the roads, but it would just seem that this 1.5 billion a year would do a huge dent to the transit issues without taking away something that people are use to.

 

[innsertnamehere]

except how 60% of people believe that some form of tax should be implemented to pay for transit, they just disagree on exactly what tax. Some prefer gas tax, some prefer road tolls, etc. In the end I hope that most people realize that the tax may not be their preferred option, but some form of tax is better than none.

I also find it interesting how most think a higher corporate rate will not affect them, it will through higher costs of goods.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

This is why I am supportive of cancelling all day kindergarten. Its hard to take away a service once its offered and people have some how got around it for so many years. That's a lot of money that could go to transit. By no way am I saying don't have a gas tax or don't toll the roads, but it would just seem that this 1.5 billion a year would do a huge dent to the transit issues without taking away something that people are use to.

Well, in theory people have been getting used to all-day kindergarten and you're taking that away. I think it's not such a great idea but perhaps threatening to do so will do the trick. Maybe if people understand that money is finite and, OK, you have a choice: More transit or all-day kindergarten...maybe then they'll get it.

TOareaFan is right about the election aspect. I don't know how you get around the idea we're at the point where it's trying to tell people to take their medicine. Golden's report talks about the education component as being crucial but I don't know how much you can get done before a spring election. There was a time I was against this stuff but the more I learned about it , the more it was obvious what needed to be done.

It's so hypocritical and naive of people to bitch about the gridlock, to bitch about our anemic transit service (which, once upon a time, was regarded as at the vanguard), to say, "Of course, I want my commute to be shorter!" and then to object to all these tools. The whole point of the Metrolinx "Quick Wins" was to soften the ground for this so I guess they have to take part of the blame. On the other hand, Toronto council has blown it by putting on a circus, not only wasting time in putting that money to work, but in lowering the level of discourse about transit/city building and giving Ford the ability to stand up there and not only deride an entire mode of transit but convince people that, yes, we can get subways for free (even while slyly, sort of approving a tax increase to do it). Sure, York Region has now got its bus lanes open and they're working great, but far more people know about Ford's shenanigans, a message that carried far and wide.

Basically, we've wasted five years that should have been spent building to this moment much more openly and constructively