Admiral Beez
Superstar
Then why did you?
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Admiral Beez
Superstar
Yes, but I haven't claimed to know anything about any city employees. What I have said I know is that the city is near bankrupt due to forces within and outside of its control, and that like any business, the city must either find new sources of revenue or cut costs or both.
Look, let's agree to stop making this about the employees, as we're just banging heads. Instead, I think we should try to at least agree that the city is near bankrupt, and then suggest how we can fix it. You're obviously against any large pay-cut, so what do you suggest? Let's leave the employees alone, but we're still short of revenue and high on costs. Either we dramatically increase property taxes to regain the revenue position or find costs to cut outside of pay-roll. It's safe to assume that neither McGuinty or Tory will save Toronto, at least not until the city deals with the immediate threat of bankruptcy. So what's it going to be, what are you going to cut? I've suggested payroll, and you've disagreed, which is fine, I'm concerned about the problem and open to any solution, so what is it going to be?
dowlingm
Senior Member
no matter how big the crisis gets, councillors won't make the toughest calls - major shutdowns. They won't even sacrifice stuff like that cobblestone maple leaf or their golf passes or Michael Walker's obsession with speed humps.
Toronto should announce that they are closing every service Ontario does not pay their bills for. Better that then those same services suffering death by a thousand cuts as they currently are.
Howard Hampton's announcement that NDP support uploading should be embarrassing to those who screamed "deferring the taxes won't make political waves - we should pass them and trust Ontario to do right by us". It's taken some time for the issue to reach Howard up in his Northern Ontario fief, but the Liberals can't avoid the issue when the NDP are promising uploading and Tory is shuffling towards it while trying to avoid calling out Mike Harris and losing the Reform wing of the Ontario PCP.
Toronto should announce that they are closing every service Ontario does not pay their bills for. Better that then those same services suffering death by a thousand cuts as they currently are.
Howard Hampton's announcement that NDP support uploading should be embarrassing to those who screamed "deferring the taxes won't make political waves - we should pass them and trust Ontario to do right by us". It's taken some time for the issue to reach Howard up in his Northern Ontario fief, but the Liberals can't avoid the issue when the NDP are promising uploading and Tory is shuffling towards it while trying to avoid calling out Mike Harris and losing the Reform wing of the Ontario PCP.
BobBob
Senior Member
Instead (or, in addition to) these taxes, Toronto should finally look into congestion charges and higher taxes on parking.
The positive thing about the current financial crisis is that it might finally make us re-think our subsidies to personal vehicles, especially those coming from out of town, where many catcalls about financial irresponsibility pointed at Toronto also originate.
The positive thing about the current financial crisis is that it might finally make us re-think our subsidies to personal vehicles, especially those coming from out of town, where many catcalls about financial irresponsibility pointed at Toronto also originate.
syn
Senior Member
That might not be a bad idea. The effects would be so significant and widespread the province would have no choice but to step up to the plate. The key is for the city to make sure people realize these are things the province should be paying for by law.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
For my own peace of mind, are the laws directing what the province is supposed to be paying for available online anywhere? IMO, back in the day when the province was created/founded, social/public housing used to be a Parish's responsbility. Let's make sure that we know what the laws say before we demand that they be followed.
Also, IIRC, the province can change the laws at any time. For instance, Toronto property owners used to pay millions to cover education, which has now been uploaded to the province.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Only residential ones right - business ones still pay Education Tax I thought?
H
Hydrogen
Guest
The point is that the provincial government has to step in - regardless of which party is in power. The structure of services and their funding must be realigned. This is not just a problem for Toronto; it is a growing problem for every city in the province. The central problem is that neither McGuinty nor Tory want to upload these services because it will require an increase in provincial income taxes.
Property taxes will have to rise. They have to because the upkeep of city infrastructure has fallen behind due so much emphasis being placed on funding all those services that could not possibly be funded by municipal taxes alone. City employees did not request downloading; they are not to blame for the costs of downloading, so punishing them only serves to get the provincial government off the hook for its wrongs.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
But what if they don't? Contrary to your post, the province doesn't have to do anything.
Yes it's wrong, but the entry and middle level employees in all corporations are always the first and the worst to suffer due to head office's mismanagement or inability to cope with changing circumstances. Why do you consider city employees immune to this over the rest of us in the private sector?
JasonParis
Moderator
From today's Star...
Ontario won't bail out city
As Toronto announces more grim details of cuts, Ontario finds wad of cash and tells city not to expect `rescue'
August 18, 2007
Robert Benzie
Rob Ferguson
Queen's Park Bureau
The provincial government is awash in cash heading into the fall election, but Finance Minister Greg Sorbara insists there's no bail-out for Toronto.
"We are not designing a rescue plan for the city of Toronto," he said yesterday after disclosing the treasury had a surprise $2.3 billion surplus last year – after first projecting a $1.4 billion deficit – and is expected to forecast a $750 million surplus this fiscal year, which began April 1.
Sorbara emphasized that the Liberals, who hold 17 of the 22 seats in the city, have increased funding to Toronto "by some 500 per cent" since taking power in 2003.
"I wish we could say that for every municipality, but we acknowledge the circumstances of the city of Toronto are unique," he told a Queen's Park news conference.
The city is facing a $575 million budget shortfall next year, and Mayor David Miller has announced service cuts of $34 million this year and $83 million next year.
He did it because city council deferred until Oct. 22 his plan to introduce a land transfer tax and vehicle registration fee that together would have raised $356 million.
City councillors yesterday demanded the province give Toronto the help it needs.
"Mr. Sorbara needs to get a crowbar, open his wallet, and give Toronto the resources it needs to be successful,'' Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong said.
The provincial announcement came on the same day city officials detailed how the cuts will impact neighbourhoods.
Sorbara said the province is "in the midst of a comprehensive review of service delivery between the province and municipalities" that is due early next year.
That review would address problems caused by the previous Progressive Conservative government's downloading of social and health services onto cities and towns.
His comments come as the Liberals have made a flurry of pre-election spending announcements that the Progressive Conservatives have tallied at $25 billion since June. Election day is Oct. 10.
Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory charged that Premier Dalton McGuinty's "orgy of pre-election spending" proves there is money for other priorities.
"Why is it these announcements are coming now? Are they just cynical attempts to rent votes?" Tory told reporters.
"They would never think that maybe that could finally answer the question of how you can give some money back to the taxpayers," he said.
NDP Leader Howard Hampton, who blasted McGuinty for trying "to bribe people with their own money before an election," said his party would improve the lot of Torontonians and all Ontarians.
"We'll deliver balanced budgets, fair taxes and investments that make a difference for people," he said.
"Like the fair deal for municipalities we announced this week that will mean lower property taxes, a two-year transit fare freeze and an end to service cuts," said Hampton.
"Mr. McGuinty got it wrong. New Democrats will make it right," he said.
Sorbara also said the state of Ontario's finances is good, helped in no small part by $400 million in higher-than-expected revenues in the first quarter, but it can't afford to eliminate the annual health tax of up to $900 a person.
"We don't have the money," the finance minister said, attacking Tory's promise to scrap the tax, which brings in $2.5 billion annually, as "easy politics".
"We were elected on a mandate that said we want better public services ... the fact is, that's what we've delivered," he said, adding he will review in 2009 whether to continue the health tax.
As for the city of Toronto's woes, last week McGuinty reminded Ontarians that he empowered Mayor David Miller and city councillors with new taxing authority.
"When we came to power, they said they wanted three things from us: respect, power, and money.
"I've always given them respect and I continue to have a good positive constructive working relationship especially with Mayor Miller," he said on Aug. 10.
"They wanted new powers, I gave them new powers.
"They wanted money, I've increased their level of support fivefold from the Tories. We've been able to do a lot together.
"Not as much as the council would like and in some ways not as much as I would like, but ... I've got to work within the realm of the possible."
Ontario won't bail out city
As Toronto announces more grim details of cuts, Ontario finds wad of cash and tells city not to expect `rescue'
August 18, 2007
Robert Benzie
Rob Ferguson
Queen's Park Bureau
The provincial government is awash in cash heading into the fall election, but Finance Minister Greg Sorbara insists there's no bail-out for Toronto.
"We are not designing a rescue plan for the city of Toronto," he said yesterday after disclosing the treasury had a surprise $2.3 billion surplus last year – after first projecting a $1.4 billion deficit – and is expected to forecast a $750 million surplus this fiscal year, which began April 1.
Sorbara emphasized that the Liberals, who hold 17 of the 22 seats in the city, have increased funding to Toronto "by some 500 per cent" since taking power in 2003.
"I wish we could say that for every municipality, but we acknowledge the circumstances of the city of Toronto are unique," he told a Queen's Park news conference.
The city is facing a $575 million budget shortfall next year, and Mayor David Miller has announced service cuts of $34 million this year and $83 million next year.
He did it because city council deferred until Oct. 22 his plan to introduce a land transfer tax and vehicle registration fee that together would have raised $356 million.
City councillors yesterday demanded the province give Toronto the help it needs.
"Mr. Sorbara needs to get a crowbar, open his wallet, and give Toronto the resources it needs to be successful,'' Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong said.
The provincial announcement came on the same day city officials detailed how the cuts will impact neighbourhoods.
Sorbara said the province is "in the midst of a comprehensive review of service delivery between the province and municipalities" that is due early next year.
That review would address problems caused by the previous Progressive Conservative government's downloading of social and health services onto cities and towns.
His comments come as the Liberals have made a flurry of pre-election spending announcements that the Progressive Conservatives have tallied at $25 billion since June. Election day is Oct. 10.
Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory charged that Premier Dalton McGuinty's "orgy of pre-election spending" proves there is money for other priorities.
"Why is it these announcements are coming now? Are they just cynical attempts to rent votes?" Tory told reporters.
"They would never think that maybe that could finally answer the question of how you can give some money back to the taxpayers," he said.
NDP Leader Howard Hampton, who blasted McGuinty for trying "to bribe people with their own money before an election," said his party would improve the lot of Torontonians and all Ontarians.
"We'll deliver balanced budgets, fair taxes and investments that make a difference for people," he said.
"Like the fair deal for municipalities we announced this week that will mean lower property taxes, a two-year transit fare freeze and an end to service cuts," said Hampton.
"Mr. McGuinty got it wrong. New Democrats will make it right," he said.
Sorbara also said the state of Ontario's finances is good, helped in no small part by $400 million in higher-than-expected revenues in the first quarter, but it can't afford to eliminate the annual health tax of up to $900 a person.
"We don't have the money," the finance minister said, attacking Tory's promise to scrap the tax, which brings in $2.5 billion annually, as "easy politics".
"We were elected on a mandate that said we want better public services ... the fact is, that's what we've delivered," he said, adding he will review in 2009 whether to continue the health tax.
As for the city of Toronto's woes, last week McGuinty reminded Ontarians that he empowered Mayor David Miller and city councillors with new taxing authority.
"When we came to power, they said they wanted three things from us: respect, power, and money.
"I've always given them respect and I continue to have a good positive constructive working relationship especially with Mayor Miller," he said on Aug. 10.
"They wanted new powers, I gave them new powers.
"They wanted money, I've increased their level of support fivefold from the Tories. We've been able to do a lot together.
"Not as much as the council would like and in some ways not as much as I would like, but ... I've got to work within the realm of the possible."
JasonParis
Moderator
Although, I'm sure if more of those 416 ridings were actually in jeopardy of being lost, much more would be "possible."
dowlingm
Senior Member
Bottom-line: Toronto needs John Tory to win his seat. We don't need any more Tories - one will do, in order to shake the Liberals into the knowledge that Toronto's votes are for sale to the highest bidder. That's how the 905 gets the love, by being largely open to offers by either of the main parties.
JasonParis
Moderator
Agreed. I honestly hope John Tory wins his seat. I also hope a few more ridings sway the NDP's way (although not all that likely to be honest).
H
Hydrogen
Guest
It's one thing when other parts of the country rag on about Toronto, but when the Ontario government turns its back on the city (when it apparently has a surplus, too), that is really low.
The present government has accomodated many of the changes that were brought in by the Harris government, making a few alterations here and there, but with no major systemic changes to clarify this mess.
The Liberal flag-waving about climate change has brought no useful, significant or integrated investment in transit infrastructure that would reflect its worries over this issue. A subway line to suit the electoral needs of a Liberal power-broker is not a "plan." And Ontario still invests very little funding in the day-to-day funding of transit when compared to other jurisdictions in North America.
Many of the problems this city faces are the product or the result of failures on the part of the provincial and federal levels. For example, it seems to be just fine when Quebec receives more than three times the money for immigrant resettlement than Ontario. What seems to be lost is that almost half of those immigrants end up in the GTA, and that many forms of support must then be funded by municipal taxes. That's just one example.
As for Tory, I won't hold my breath. Too many Toronto politicians seem to lose focus once they have some power to do something. Toronto just becomes a fact in the back of their minds, always there, always bumbling along in spite of all the broken promises and neglect.
How long can this go on?
The present government has accomodated many of the changes that were brought in by the Harris government, making a few alterations here and there, but with no major systemic changes to clarify this mess.
The Liberal flag-waving about climate change has brought no useful, significant or integrated investment in transit infrastructure that would reflect its worries over this issue. A subway line to suit the electoral needs of a Liberal power-broker is not a "plan." And Ontario still invests very little funding in the day-to-day funding of transit when compared to other jurisdictions in North America.
Many of the problems this city faces are the product or the result of failures on the part of the provincial and federal levels. For example, it seems to be just fine when Quebec receives more than three times the money for immigrant resettlement than Ontario. What seems to be lost is that almost half of those immigrants end up in the GTA, and that many forms of support must then be funded by municipal taxes. That's just one example.
As for Tory, I won't hold my breath. Too many Toronto politicians seem to lose focus once they have some power to do something. Toronto just becomes a fact in the back of their minds, always there, always bumbling along in spite of all the broken promises and neglect.
How long can this go on?
Pep'rJack
Active Member
.
More cuts, more anger
Toronto councillors fume as suddenly rich province still refuses to offer a bailout for city
August 18, 2007
by Donovan Vincent
CITY HALL BUREAU
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/247597
On the same day the provincial government declared a massive provincial budget surplus, Toronto residents learned just how close to home the city's cuts will reach.
Toronto councillors reacted angrily when they heard Ontario Finance Minister Greg Sorbara promised no "rescue plan'' for the city.
"The city desperately needs the money, the minister knows that and he has no excuses,'' Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong said yesterday.
Sorbara announced yesterday that Ontario's treasury had a surprise $2.3 billion surplus last year, and is predicting a $750 million surplus for this fiscal year, beginning April 1.
"Mr. Sorbara needs to get a crowbar, open his wallet, and give Toronto the resources it needs to be successful,'' Minnan-Wong added.
"I'm not pleased by (Sorbara's) comment,'' said Councillor Cesar Palacio.
"We're not asking for handouts or a rescue. The province has a responsibility to Toronto.''
Yesterday Toronto issued a 12 1/2-page document listing the cuts, which included the names of the 130 community centres that will close every Monday starting Sept. 17, and the 16 library branches that will close every Sunday starting Sept. 2.
Other specifics released yesterday:
400 to 500 trees scheduled to be planted in front of residences this fall will be delayed.
Garbage baskets in parks, currently emptied every second day, will be emptied once a week in the Toronto and East York districts, and once every two weeks in the remaining areas.
Only potholes deemed dangerous will be identified with a marker cone within a day and repaired "when feasible.'' Currently, the standard is that all identified potholes are investigated within a day, and repaired within a week.
The list (online at toronto.ca/finance) is a follow-up to last week's "cost containment'' announcement by Mayor David Miller and his city manager Shirley Hoy.
The service cuts will trim $34 million up to the end of this year, and $83 million next year.
Miller says the cuts are needed because when city council voted 23-22 last month to defer a decision on whether to implement two new taxes – a land transfer tax and vehicle registration fee – until Oct. 22 the delay caused a fiscal crisis.
The city faces a $575 million operating budget shortfall next year. Those who voted for the deferral did so to pressure candidates in the upcoming provincial election to upload the costs Toronto pays for social services.
Suzan Hall, the Toronto councillor who put forward the deferral motion, said she isn't discouraged by Sorbara's remarks.
She's waiting to hear if there's an announcement from the province on uploading, when the Association of Municipalities of Ontario meets Monday to Wednesday at the Ottawa Congress Centre.
"Uploading, if it's designed for the entire province, will also benefit Toronto,'' she said.
Though he voted against the deferral, councillor Adrian Heaps said he also thinks the province will "come through'' with an uploading announcement.
Latest trims:
The city yesterday released details on the service cuts announced last week. Here are some of the changes. (More information at www.toronto.ca/finance)
City pools will be closed on Mondays.
Only dangerous potholes will be marked within a day. They will be repaired when feasible. Currently potholes are repaired within one week.
Seasonal removal of summer plant material will happen earlier or be delayed until spring.
Delayed preparedness for pandemic influenza emergency.
Animal shelters will shut one day every week and reduce field services to one day each week.
.
More cuts, more anger
Toronto councillors fume as suddenly rich province still refuses to offer a bailout for city
August 18, 2007
by Donovan Vincent
CITY HALL BUREAU
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/247597
On the same day the provincial government declared a massive provincial budget surplus, Toronto residents learned just how close to home the city's cuts will reach.
Toronto councillors reacted angrily when they heard Ontario Finance Minister Greg Sorbara promised no "rescue plan'' for the city.
"The city desperately needs the money, the minister knows that and he has no excuses,'' Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong said yesterday.
Sorbara announced yesterday that Ontario's treasury had a surprise $2.3 billion surplus last year, and is predicting a $750 million surplus for this fiscal year, beginning April 1.
"Mr. Sorbara needs to get a crowbar, open his wallet, and give Toronto the resources it needs to be successful,'' Minnan-Wong added.
"I'm not pleased by (Sorbara's) comment,'' said Councillor Cesar Palacio.
"We're not asking for handouts or a rescue. The province has a responsibility to Toronto.''
Yesterday Toronto issued a 12 1/2-page document listing the cuts, which included the names of the 130 community centres that will close every Monday starting Sept. 17, and the 16 library branches that will close every Sunday starting Sept. 2.
Other specifics released yesterday:
400 to 500 trees scheduled to be planted in front of residences this fall will be delayed.
Garbage baskets in parks, currently emptied every second day, will be emptied once a week in the Toronto and East York districts, and once every two weeks in the remaining areas.
Only potholes deemed dangerous will be identified with a marker cone within a day and repaired "when feasible.'' Currently, the standard is that all identified potholes are investigated within a day, and repaired within a week.
The list (online at toronto.ca/finance) is a follow-up to last week's "cost containment'' announcement by Mayor David Miller and his city manager Shirley Hoy.
The service cuts will trim $34 million up to the end of this year, and $83 million next year.
Miller says the cuts are needed because when city council voted 23-22 last month to defer a decision on whether to implement two new taxes – a land transfer tax and vehicle registration fee – until Oct. 22 the delay caused a fiscal crisis.
The city faces a $575 million operating budget shortfall next year. Those who voted for the deferral did so to pressure candidates in the upcoming provincial election to upload the costs Toronto pays for social services.
Suzan Hall, the Toronto councillor who put forward the deferral motion, said she isn't discouraged by Sorbara's remarks.
She's waiting to hear if there's an announcement from the province on uploading, when the Association of Municipalities of Ontario meets Monday to Wednesday at the Ottawa Congress Centre.
"Uploading, if it's designed for the entire province, will also benefit Toronto,'' she said.
Though he voted against the deferral, councillor Adrian Heaps said he also thinks the province will "come through'' with an uploading announcement.
Latest trims:
The city yesterday released details on the service cuts announced last week. Here are some of the changes. (More information at www.toronto.ca/finance)
City pools will be closed on Mondays.
Only dangerous potholes will be marked within a day. They will be repaired when feasible. Currently potholes are repaired within one week.
Seasonal removal of summer plant material will happen earlier or be delayed until spring.
Delayed preparedness for pandemic influenza emergency.
Animal shelters will shut one day every week and reduce field services to one day each week.
.