New Land Transfer Tax

[Hydrogen]

If I worked for an entity on the brink of financial ruin (ie. City of Toronto), and I was obviously overpaid and underworked (ie. city workers) then yes.

But before that, you would have happily kept what is to you ill-gotten gains.

No. I would quit and take my skillset elsewhere, where I would negotiate a fair salary - of course hoping it would be equal or better than my gov't paycheque. The overpaid city workers are welcome to do the same.

Look, the piggybank is dry, the city corporation has no money left. It's time raise revenue and/or cut expenses (in the city's case this means a property tax rate hike to match the GTA cities and a reduction in payroll). This is what all corporations must do.

What if your skillset was specific to work for the city? Could be a problem. What if you don't consider yourself to be overpaid for the labour you do? It easy to demand of others, and always easy to pretend that you have the insight to manage other people's lives. Dealing with such a cut in income is a little different in reality.

As for the piggybank being dry, it's structure has been mismanaged over a considerable amount of time. Slashing salaries will not solve this underlying problem.



Nevertheless, the two of you don't have to take a 20% paycut, do you. Neither of you would have to put up with the repercussions of having to deal with such a challenge. So that gives you a luxury to make demands of others that you don't have to manage. Be that as it may, it's no stretch of imagination to realize that there are people out there who probably look at you and think that you are overpaid and underworked. It's not the most comforting of accusations.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What if your skillset was specific to work for the city? Could be a problem. What if you don't consider yourself to be overpaid for the labour you do?

Then yes you have a problem. The employer gets to decide the value of your labour, if you want more money, you must show the boss that you're worth more money. If you can't, then you're done.

Nevertheless, the two of you don't have to take a 20% paycut, do you. Neither of you would have to put up with the repercussions of having to deal with such a challenge. So that gives you a luxury to make demands of others that you don't have to manage.

You know nothing of my career, financial or personal history.

 

[Pep'rJack]

.
Hampton promises to reverse downloading


August 14, 2007
by Kerry Gillespie
Queen's Park Bureau

http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/246145


Ontario’s New Democrats say they’ll reverse downloading and institute a two-year transit fare freeze if they’re elected this fall.

NDP Leader Howard Hampton’s plan includes taking $1.4 billion off the property tax base across the province by uploading the municipal portion of the disability support program and drug benefits for those on social assistance. He would also have the province increase funding to public transit, pay more for cost-shared programs, and cover court security costs.

For Toronto, this would mean $396 million in savings, he said.

“It used to be families paid fair property taxes and got good value for their money. But it’s not that way anymore because the McGuinty government is a deadbeat government that won’t pay its bills,†Hampton said.

Under the NDP plan, about half the costs would be uploaded in 2008, with the rest to follow in 2011.

The Liberals have long agreed that cities can’t afford the provincial social services downloaded onto to them by the former Progressive Conservative government.

The Liberals have uploaded some costs and have promised to do more. Premier Dalton McGuinty is expected to announce their next steps next week at a conference in Ottawa.

Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory has also said downloading was a bad idea and that, if elected, he’ll announce his fix within a few months of the Oct. 10 election.

There’s no word on how the New Democrats, if they’re elected or hold the balance of power in a minority government after the election, would pay for these uploading promises.

That information will be provided sometime before the election, Hampton said.
.

 

[Edward Skira]

The dam breaks. Now the other two will be forced to respond. If they do respond in kind it'll be ironic that Hampton saves the city while still not winning the election.

 

[adma]

http://www.tomandjerryonline.com/sounds/believe.wav

 

[TrickyRicky]

^Except Hampton is of no political consequence.

At any rate with all this talk of unions this right wing that, I never got a comment regarding my post suggesting that the problem with the new land transfer tax may be it's excessive rate and the fact that council is asking too much of it. Would it not be more politically savvy regardless of the crisis situation we are currently in to introduce a small land transfer tax and increase it by stealth annually once it has established itself as part of the real estate transaction process? The proposed tax is so large it has the potential to seriously impact the behaviour of the market. A smaller transaction charge say up to $1000 would not.

 

[ShonTron]

Hampton will be of political consequence if there is a minority government, which is something that should not be ruled out. I can see McGuinty losing a few seats, but it may depend on how many.

McGuinty will certainly not want to see any more leakage to the NDP (following several by-elections) so he might want to shore up his left flank and take the wind out of Hampton's sails by adopting enough of the NDP platform.

Therefore it is silly to discount the NDP.

 

[JasonParis]

It will look more like a third world city like Havana, where poverty is the norm, but you get what you vote for, right?

Dude, stop with the Rush Limaughisms. Nobody on here can take you the least bit seriously when you throw stuff out there like that. Despite your best efforts, I seriously doubt Mayor Miller is emulating communist Cuba. Also, for the record, pretty much all the world's great cities are in high tax jurisdictions that also tend to be highly unionized (Paris, London, New York, Berlin, etc.)

The city should be hiring people who actually care about making the city a better place, not just people looking to cash in at taxpayers' expense.

Hyperbole that means nothing. How on earth does HR go about doing that?

When companies are in financial trouble, they reduce staff, sometimes reduce pay and/or benefits and increase productivity. This seems to be a foreign concept to the city. Productivity and accountability are dirty words for the municipal government.

There are always efficiencies to be found somewhere and if Toronto can find some, than great. However, Toronto is a very rich city who shouldn't have to play this poor city role as has been fictionalized by senior governments and continually fed by certain media establishments.

Socialist are just pot smoking idealists. They always want something perfect and ignore what goes around them.

Conservatives are just party pooping idealogues that believe simple tax cuts can solve incredibly complex problems.

Two can play this game.

Would it not be more politically savvy regardless of the crisis situation we are currently in to introduce a small land transfer tax and increase it by stealth annually once it has established itself as part of the real estate transaction process? The proposed tax is so large it has the potential to seriously impact the behaviour of the market. A smaller transaction charge say up to $1000 would not.

You'll probably see something just like this come October I'd predict. The tax would have been a big hit to homeowners, but I'm not sure it would have seriously impaced market behaviour. Regardless, a more nuanced tax may be more palatable.

McGuinty will certainly not want to see any more leakage to the NDP (following several by-elections) so he might want to shore up his left flank and take the wind out of Hampton's sails by adopting enough of the NDP platform.

Good point. Also, with "uploading" now officially on the agenda of all 3 campaigns (to one degree or another) we can hopefully see this become one of the main issues of the coming campaign which would be great for Ontario's cities.

 

[lordmandeep]

Conservatives are just party pooping idealogues that believe simple tax cuts can solve incredibly complex problems.

Two can play this game.

thats why the centre is best.

 

[unimaginative2]

The problem is that politically, for the Liberals matching the NDP's promise makes no sense. Since Toronto has chosen to go it alone on this issue so that uploading is seen as a purely Toronto issue, it will inevitably create significant hostility in a number of rural and suburban seats, many of which are on a knife edge. Moreover, those seats are essentially worth double a downtown seat that would be lost to the NDP, since the latter won't be using it to form a government. I'd say that being seen as pandering to Toronto (and it's hard to argue with more than half of the cabinet coming from the 416) could cost the Liberals between five and ten seats, all to the Tories. On the other hand, there's no way that the Liberals could lose more than one or two seats to the NDP, especially considering that the latter have already tapped most of their fertile ground in recent by-elections. A few extra votes to the NDP might help Tory beat Wynne, but that's likely pretty unavoidable anyway (though she will likely give him a Dennis Mills-esque run for his money).

That being said, it certainly doesn't mean that they won't match the NDP promise, since they seem to consider downtown ridings that could be lost to the NDP much more important than rural ridings that could be lost the Conservatives. Their policy people and cabinet ministers also tend to be urban and 416-based, so they have a personal desire to do it, too. It just means that it's not the smartest political decision.

 

[JasonParis]

thats why the centre is best.

That's actually where I consider myself too. The problem is that the centre is always changing. Apparently my views are "communist" to some, but too "market driven" for others. Also, being in the centre in Canada probably means red-tory or small "l" liberal or possibly even NDP. However, being in the "centre" in Europe would mean something left of that. Being "centre" in the U.S. could easily mean being G.O.P. Therefore, just saying "I'm in the centre" doesn't really mean much.

 

[Hydrogen]

You know nothing of my career, financial or personal history.

That's true Beez, I know nothing of your career. But then you know nothing of the thousands of careers, financial or personal histories of the thousands of people who work for the city, do you? Yet still, this has not stopped you or others from suggesting that they take a pay reduction, has it?

The problem is that politically, for the Liberals matching the NDP's promise makes no sense. Since Toronto has chosen to go it alone on this issue so that uploading is seen as a purely Toronto issue, it will inevitably create significant hostility in a number of rural and suburban seats, many of which are on a knife edge.

The city of Ottawa requested similar powers as Toronto, and was turned down by McGuinty. One has to wonder why. Clearly,the city of Ottawa is feeling the pinch with respect to having to cover downloaded costs - and it has very high municipal taxes (and the NCC to keep many assests looking pretty).

Good point. Also, with "uploading" now officially on the agenda of all 3 campaigns (to one degree or another) we can hopefully see this become one of the main issues of the coming campaign which would be great for Ontario's cities.

And the mayor ought to keep it there by being active during the provincial election, and bringing the issue up at very opportunity. Here is his opportunity to play the three leaders off each other on this issue. He ought to make it clear to everyone in Toronto what this means and how it relates back to the province.

 

[notyouagain]

The city should host a leader's debate during the election to deal with municipal issues. See who lacks the balls to show up.

 

[Admiral Beez]

That's true Beez, I know nothing of your career. But then you know nothing of the thousands of careers, financial or personal histories of the thousands of people who work for the city, do you? Yet still, this has not stopped you or others from suggesting that they take a pay reduction, has it?

That logic does not follow.

You've said

Nevertheless, the two of you don't have to take a 20% paycut, do you. Neither of you would have to put up with the repercussions of having to deal with such a challenge. So that gives you a luxury to make demands of others that you don't have to manage.

To which I have rightly replied that you do not have the supporting data to make this assertion. However, instead of replying that your statement was unfounded, you defend your statement by saying I know nothing of the city workers. However I never claimed to know anything of their histories, while on the contrary you have inferred that you knew mine.

What I do know is that the city is near bankrupt due to factors both within and outside of its control. When your city or corporation is bankrupt you must either find another source of revenue or cut costs or both.

 

[Hydrogen]

To which I have rightly replied that you do not have the supporting data to make this assertion. However, instead of replying that your statement was unfounded, you defend your statement by saying I know nothing of the city workers. However I never claimed to know anything of their histories, while on the contrary you have inferred that you knew mine.

Logic? My question was whether you would take a 20% paycut. You said no. I responded that if you were not willing to take such a cut, then why would you expect others to - except out of your own prejudice that they deserve such a cut.

Concerning your financial situation, you provided no data upon which to comment. For all I know, you are wealthy. Frankly, I don't care.

I highly doubt you know everything about all the possible positions of all city employees. Maybe you can explain why this is illogical to you.