New Land Transfer Tax

[3cp1]

That's quite an abrupt about-face from someone who posted virtually nothing but rigidly narrow anti-union venom from the outset, but I'm certainly not complaining. The "problem", however, with this new pov is that it attempts - in typical right-wing fashion - to create a false equivalency where none actually exists:



Hydrogen has pretty much spoken for me recently in this thread, so I won't repeat his points. Blaming the now-standard neoliberal policies of Martin and Harris for the large bulk of TO's current predicament is not at all based on black-&-white perception, it is simply reality. Whether or not one believes those policies were for the best is a matter of opinion - what those policies have intentionally led to is not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast
.

Something tells me if the average city worker made $300,000 a year, you'd still be saying it's all Harris' fault. You are the one who is one sided. Anyone who looks at the numbers with an unbiased eye can see that city workers are grossly overpaid, and that cutting their wages and salaries by 20% would still make them overpaid. Yet making those cuts would go half way to solving Toronto's fiscal crisis. Uploading provincial services would solve the other half.

 

[ShonTron]

Something tells me if the average city worker made $300,000 a year, you'd still be saying it's all Harris' fault. You are the one who is one sided. Anyone who looks at the numbers with an unbiased eye can see that city workers are grossly overpaid, and that cutting their wages and salaries by 20% would still make them overpaid. Yet making those cuts would go half way to solving Toronto's fiscal crisis. Uploading provincial services would solve the other half.

Thanks for my Sunday morning funnies!

 

[3cp1]

Thanks for my Sunday morning funnies!

So much for a balanced forum. Might as well change the name to Socialist Toronto Forum. Keep supporting Miller and CUPE, and you'll get your socialist paradise. It will look more like a third world city like Havana, where poverty is the norm, but you get what you vote for, right?

 

[Admiral Beez]

So much for a balanced forum. Might as well change the name to Socialist Toronto Forum.

You just now figured that out? From its onset, I'd wager to guess that the majority of folks here at UT are still in university or recent grads with below average incomes (and hating the MAN for their lot in life), living with their parents or in dirty basement apartments with dreamy thoughts of kumbyah, being overall very leftward leaning, with a spot of gay folks (nothing wrong with that - been the best thing that happened to Cabbagetown since, well, cabbage), with Harper or Tory supporters being far and few between. I'd say if you don't like that and can't laugh off most of its extremes, this is the wrong place to be.

 

[theman23]

But how would we go about lowering salaries 20% for all city workers? The union bosses don't seem to be willing to accept a wage freeze, which is far more generous than a substantial wage decrease.

 

[3cp1]

But how would we go about lowering salaries 20% for all city workers? The union bosses don't seem to be willing to accept a wage freeze, which is far more generous than a substantial wage decrease.

Well, that's just it, we need a Mayor and council that will put the unions in their place. Right now, unions are running this city and calling all the shots. Nothing stands in their way to keep them in check. A vote for Miller and his pals on council is a vote for CUPE, higher wages, more bureaucracy, bigger debts and higher taxes. Paying litter pickers $46,000/year plus 23% benefits hasn't made this city any cleaner. Paying higher wages doesn't automatically result in better workers. The city should be hiring people who actually care about making the city a better place, not just people looking to cash in at taxpayers' expense.

 

[lordmandeep]

he is saying that the unions support Miller fully. Thus Miller will do everything to
appease them and he will not hurt them either.

An easy way is to put on a hiring freeze. Then the retirees will retire and you can replace them with cheaper workers. Sure its not fair, but it needs to be done.

in NYC they get the able bodies homeless to clean up the street. Instead of wasting 250 million dollars that in turns is doing nothing. Why not help the homeless that really need help and get the regular homeless working again. You spend less and you help the ones who really need it.

I am not some conservative but we all know socialism doesn't work unless we send like 70% of our income to the govt. Ideally i would like to have the govt spend a lot of money providing services and such. Realistically, it not possible in Toronto.

 

[ganjavih]

So much for a balanced forum. Might as well change the name to Socialist Toronto Forum.

Yes, this is generally a left-leaning forum but no one is going to bite your head off if you present your arguments in a mature, rhetoric and hyperbole-free manner... something you haven't done. I generally don't trust unions... they are necessary but they've become corrupt and often promote laziness. However, the quality of your posts isn't helping the cause.

 

[unimaginative2]

Mayor's move ignites war of words


.Aug 11, 2007 04:30 AM
Royson James
City Hall columnist

Today was supposed to be the beginning of a new era in Toronto's fiscal future – one based on hard facts and tough reality.

Without an extra $350 million in taxes – proposals deferred for three months by city council last July – Mayor David Miller yesterday summoned the media to announce the fallout:

A hiring freeze affecting 376 jobs, 3,000 workers working fewer hours, closed community centres on Mondays, 16 libraries closed on Sundays, loss of premium snow removal service (except in massive snowstorms) pioneered by the old North York, and so on.

Surely, Torontonians would get the message: "There is no way to provide a good quality of life without paying for it."

More importantly, councillors would be forced to unite behind the mayor, provide stable, confident leadership in the face of public angst over higher taxes and shepherd the city through the crisis.

Not quite. No sooner had Miller delivered the bad news – with warnings of even worse measures to come, if council doesn't rally in October and approve the taxing measures – than city councillors turned on each other in a vicious public and personal attack not seen at city hall in decades, if ever. Before journalists could digest the cuts, city councillors went nose-to-nose, shouting, accusing, fighting about who is most responsible for the city's fiscal mess. With television cameras and tape recorders running in the hands of bemused reporters, the bad feelings over last July's vote boiled over.

Former journalist and rookie councillor Adam Vaughan accused Miller's toughest critic, Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong, of grandstanding. Minnan-Wong stood nose-to-nose and blasted Vaughan for moonlighting on Citytv to raise his profile. Howard Moscoe hurled his burly frame into the imbroglio with charges that North Yorkers would hold Minnan-Wong responsible for lost snow removal services. And Glen De Baeremaeker piled on, blaming Minnan-Wong for Mike Harris's fiscal attacks on city hall.

It is this group that Miller must herd into the council chamber in October to take another stab at approving the new taxes. It's almost inconceivable council would outright reject the taxes. But all bets are off.

Miller obviously does not have a political strategy yet to deliver the vote. Yesterday, for example, with several news media carrying the news conference live, he failed to directly address Torontonians, opting to give crucial air time to city manager Shirley Hoy. She delivered a sober, nuts-and-bolts presentation, not the political, rally-the-citizens address some felt was needed.

Even Miller's supporters on council were left scratching their heads over the handling of the crisis.

With a new system that gives him control over the city's agenda, a powerful executive committee and the power of patronage appointments, supporters felt Miller had the tools to deliver the vote. Having lost the deferral vote at council in July, supporters like Vaughan are now taking matters into their hands as they panic over the prospect of losing valuable city services. If the public continues to rail against the taxes, councillors who voted for the deferral may kill the proposal outright – plunging the city into chaos.

"I'm scared," said De Baeremaeker, "This could be the end of civilized society for us," he said afterwards. "We are on the precipice."

Miller has 10 weeks to fix it.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Right now, unions are running this city and calling all the shots. Nothing stands in their way to keep them in check.

A firm hand in control would bring things under control.

I would accept an immediate 3 - 5% property tax increase, bringing us more inline with other cities in the GTA. In return, I would expect the city to immeidately begin a process of hiring private firms based on competitive tenders for garbage collection, parks and street cleaning/maintenance, review and issuance of permits (parking, building, etc.), etc. thus bringing a quick reduction in pay-roll. If the existing workers go on strike, that's more savings, since they'll be doing us the favour of removing themselves from the pay-roll. I would cancel all municipal funding for festivals and cultural events, saving more $ - IMO, if you want parades, you pay 100% for them.

Regardless of your political leanings, there is only one way out of this mess, and that's a significiant property tax increase coupled with drastic cost savings.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I've come out against the land transfer tax as an argument but one issue not generally discussed is not the concept but the taxation rate. Why is Miller so insistent that land transfer bear such a huge burden of the revenue short-fall? What I mean is that instead of charging people $4000 in land transfer tax set the rate much lower to say $500-1000 and add land transfer tax as another tool in the revenue chest as opposed to the budget's white knight. Also, what about the other taxes like alcohol etc.? Why not implement them all but keep the rates low to mute opposition. Of course people don't like new taxes but my suspicion is people see (and perhaps rightfully so) this tax as somewhat unreasonably because it is just set too high to be reasonable.

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

Get this: I pay taxes. I pay plenty of taxes. So do many other people. That tax money is often poorly used by the various levels of government. The result is this: more taxes.

I have an issue with poor management of public funds. I have a right to have an issue with this problem, as a member of the public and all. Too bad if you don't like the attitude.

There's one problem with what you wrote here, Hydrogren about you believing "That tax money is often poorly used by the various levels of government" and "poor management of public funds."

You will not find a municipal government in Ontario who would admit to that or any provincial agency either. Everyone is working "110 per cent" on your behalf, Hydrogen. "All municipal governments are responsible and accountable governments" and respect every one of your hard-earned pennies.

The citizens of Ontario are fortunate to have such global-leading "Trust Quality Excellence" governments serving them.

About the only other person who'd believe you, Hydrogen, is the Ontario Ombudsman --so get with it.

Governments in Ontario are world-class deliverers of service, so there. If you like I can direct you to several sections of the City of Mississauga mississauga.ca website to prove it. Oh, and the McGuinty Liberal website too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervWq1ch3mo

 

[Hydrogen]

Something tells me if the average city worker made $300,000 a year, you'd still be saying it's all Harris' fault.

But the average city worker is not making $300,000 a year, so your point makes no sense.

Governments in Ontario are world-class deliverers of service, so there. If you like I can direct you to several sections of the City of Mississauga mississauga.ca website to prove it. Oh, and the McGuinty Liberal website too.

Muse,

If only I knew what "world-class deliverers" of service are, I could recognize them.

 

[Hydrogen]

Toronto's problems began when they accepted the downloading. Imagine if the Feds told the Province, okay, you're now responsible for funding National Defence. The Province wouldn't have said okay, we'll give it a try and do our best; no, they would have told the Feds to shove it. When the Province told the City that they had to fund social housing, the City should have said that's not our job, we're not going to do, and we'll be sending anyone who needs shelter to the lawn outside Queen's Park, with a new tent supplied by the city.

The city can be legislated out of existence by the province. If the province can do that, it can pretty much do what it want with respect to defining what the city can, must or should not do.

The city has complained for ten years about Runciman's "dog's breakfast" who-does-what fun and games. Nothing has come of it so far.

Here’s my first proposal: an across the board 20% wage and salary reduction for city employees.

3cp1, would you be willing to take a 20% pay cut? Honestly. Think about it before you answer.

You just now figured that out? From its onset, I'd wager to guess that the majority of folks here at UT are still in university or recent grads with below average incomes (and hating the MAN for their lot in life)

This whole "socialist" accusation stance is merely a little straw-man strategy right out of the McCarthy era playbook.

 

[rbt]

Here’s my first proposal: an across the board 20% wage and salary reduction for city employees.

I recall Lastman causing a large number of strikes by trying to hold salaries at 0% increases. The province, under Harris at that time, legally enforced the city give 3% annual raises.

That is, millions lost in labour and large impact to local business, and 3% annual raises.

Miller gave roughly 3% annual raises with no lost labour or impact to the local economy or requiring the province to step in and negotiate labour disputes on the cities behalf.


The only real option the city has to reduce labour costs is to cut back on the number of positions through attrition.