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cassiusa
Guest
^ Correction, it's not an excuse. It's a reason to change the laws.
edit: typo
edit: typo
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andreapalladio
Guest
Sure. Of course, by that logic, we should legalize tax evasion, insider trading and drunk driving. Because everybody's doing it.
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gboykovekin
Guest
Well the lawmaker's operate in a slightly different environment than the users. As long as the general rules of the road are followed, all users benefit. I keep in mind the hierarchy approach to transportation modes - with pedestrians having priority and private automobiles having the least.
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Archivistower
Guest
ap, you haven't exactly answered all the questions. What speed, on the 401, do you drive? 100? Always?
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Chuck100
Guest
Call me naive, but I really think that everyone should just obey the laws, and those who don't should be fined wherever possible. If you still deem it necessary to break the rules, just don't blame someone else when you have a close call.
I also wanted to add that it's never safe for cyclists to drive the wrong way on a one way street, even if it's residential. Side streets are narrow, especially since cars park on one side of the road. You'd better be prepared to have the car pass mere inches from your handle bars, and when that happens it's YOUR fault.
I also wanted to add that it's never safe for cyclists to drive the wrong way on a one way street, even if it's residential. Side streets are narrow, especially since cars park on one side of the road. You'd better be prepared to have the car pass mere inches from your handle bars, and when that happens it's YOUR fault.
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EnviroTO
Guest
Breaking the law should result in a fine. I don't know why he would call it "taxing cyclists" though. The whole mentality that a fine is a tax and not a punishment or deterrent means that the fine obvioiusly isn't high enough.
The idea that some rules of the road are hard to obey on a bike is one I find ridiculous. All the same arguments about looking all directions before breezing through a 4-way stop, driving slowly the wrong way on a one-way street, etc because one deems it safe is hardly an excuse. Some people can safely drive at 200km/h on the 401 but for those that can't I am happy to accept a lower speed limit for all. Perhaps some cyclists safely breeze through a stop sign but I have seen others that obviously can't.
The only rule I can see needing more flexibility is the bikes on sidewalks rule which I think should take into account speed... sidewalks are for walking speed but a bike, rollerblades, segway, etc going a walking speed should be able to safely share a sidewalk. I'm not too happy with the lack of a way to get from A to B on a segway... every form of transportation should have its place and to me it seems speed is the important factor in determining where that correct place is.
The idea that some rules of the road are hard to obey on a bike is one I find ridiculous. All the same arguments about looking all directions before breezing through a 4-way stop, driving slowly the wrong way on a one-way street, etc because one deems it safe is hardly an excuse. Some people can safely drive at 200km/h on the 401 but for those that can't I am happy to accept a lower speed limit for all. Perhaps some cyclists safely breeze through a stop sign but I have seen others that obviously can't.
The only rule I can see needing more flexibility is the bikes on sidewalks rule which I think should take into account speed... sidewalks are for walking speed but a bike, rollerblades, segway, etc going a walking speed should be able to safely share a sidewalk. I'm not too happy with the lack of a way to get from A to B on a segway... every form of transportation should have its place and to me it seems speed is the important factor in determining where that correct place is.
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cdl42
Guest
In Ohio cyclists can legally treat a stop sign as a yield sign.
"The idea that some rules of the road are hard to obey on a bike is one I find ridiculous."
Then all I can assume is that you've never relied on a bicycle as a primary mode of transportation downtown. The rules of the road are designed for cars, not for bikes, and this does cause problems and fustration.
"The idea that some rules of the road are hard to obey on a bike is one I find ridiculous."
Then all I can assume is that you've never relied on a bicycle as a primary mode of transportation downtown. The rules of the road are designed for cars, not for bikes, and this does cause problems and fustration.
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EnviroTO
Guest
I use a bike frequently downtown. Many car drivers drive like asses (especially when turning) and I have a scar on my right arm to prove it but that doesn't mean cyclists need to join in. I don't see how cars being driven by fools mandates cyclists breezing through a stop sign or stoplight or going the wrong way on a one way street. How is safety improved for cyclists by doing those things?
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cdl42
Guest
There's no need to act like a fool, that's for sure. But you stated that you don't believe that some rules are hard to obey. Not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign in a quiet area so you don't lose all your momentum, or cutting the wrong way down a one-way street in the Spadina-Bathurst one-way-street-maze (designed solely to remove through car traffic) so you don't pointlessly waste your energy isn't foolish and helps to reduce the fustration of urban cycling. Although my safety may not be improved, I don't believe that my safety is reduced by doing these things either as long as I remain alert and courteous.
Edit: Spelling and clarity
Edit: Spelling and clarity
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Darkstar416
Guest
Well said CDL.
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Chuck100
Guest
As long as you're willing to fully accept the blame should an incident occur (within reason of course) that's fine. In all modes of travel, aggressive people often make a mistake, and end up yelling at someone else. That's what bugs me more than anything.Although my safety may not be increased, I don't believe that my safety is reduced by doing these things either as long as a remain alert and courteous.
Go ahead and drive the wrong way on a one way street, but don't get angry at cars for forcing you into the curb. Go ahead and drive through stop signs, but don't blame a pedestrian for walking into you on the crosswalk. Drive through red lights, but don't blame a right turning car for sideswiping you. If you accept the risk, you accept full liability in an accident. That's the way I see it. And that goes for all drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists.
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Archivistower
Guest
Gee, I hope those who uphold all the laws while on a bicycle remember to signal all left and right turns, and stops, and that they also signal when they move from a parked position, as required by the Highway Traffic Act. If not, I hope they will admit to this violation of the law and call down the full forces of our ticketmeisters on themselves.
The driver or operator of a vehicle upon a highway before turning to the left or right at any intersection or into a private road or driveway or from one lane for traffic to another lane for traffic or to leave the roadway shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and if the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (1).
Signal when moving from parked position
(2) The driver or operator of a vehicle parked or stopped on the highway before setting the vehicle in motion shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and, if in turning the vehicle the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement, shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (2).
Mode of signalling turn
(3) The signal required in subsections (1) and (2) shall be given either by means of the hand and arm in the manner herein specified or by a mechanical or electrical signal device as described in subsection (6). R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (3).
How to signal manually
(4) When the signal is given by means of the hand and arm, the driver or operator shall indicate his or her intention to turn,
(a) to the left, by extending the hand and arm horizontally and beyond the left side of the vehicle; or
(b) to the right, by extending the hand and arm upward and beyond the left side of the vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (4).
Idem
(5) Despite clause (4) (b), a person on a bicycle may indicate the intention to turn to the right by extending the right hand and arm horizontally and beyond the right side of the bicycle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (5).
I would prefer to live in a society where people place civility over the rigid enforcement of the letter of the law.
The driver or operator of a vehicle upon a highway before turning to the left or right at any intersection or into a private road or driveway or from one lane for traffic to another lane for traffic or to leave the roadway shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and if the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (1).
Signal when moving from parked position
(2) The driver or operator of a vehicle parked or stopped on the highway before setting the vehicle in motion shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and, if in turning the vehicle the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement, shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (2).
Mode of signalling turn
(3) The signal required in subsections (1) and (2) shall be given either by means of the hand and arm in the manner herein specified or by a mechanical or electrical signal device as described in subsection (6). R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (3).
How to signal manually
(4) When the signal is given by means of the hand and arm, the driver or operator shall indicate his or her intention to turn,
(a) to the left, by extending the hand and arm horizontally and beyond the left side of the vehicle; or
(b) to the right, by extending the hand and arm upward and beyond the left side of the vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (4).
Idem
(5) Despite clause (4) (b), a person on a bicycle may indicate the intention to turn to the right by extending the right hand and arm horizontally and beyond the right side of the bicycle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (5).
I would prefer to live in a society where people place civility over the rigid enforcement of the letter of the law.
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gboykovekin
Guest
I remember when I was biking throughout downtown Toronto last week, drivers thought I was crazy signaling and I may have looked like quite the fool, but I did get their attention more quickly than if I did otherwise. There were quite a few interesections where I was stopped in the centre of the traffic lane having cyclists pass me on the right, and then when the light would turn green I would pass them again.
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cdl42
Guest
Chuck100:
Exactly. That's all I ask. Bend and break the rules if you wish, just be willing to accept the concequences if anything does happen. The most important thing is not to be stupid about it, right? Not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign when there is traffic and pedestrians in your path is stupid, not coming to a complete stop after looking around to ensure that there is no traffic that you need to yield to is a whole different matter.
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Personally, I'm someone who generally follows rules (except for in the cases I cite) and curses those who give cyclists a bad name. I had a bell and lights for my bike (before it was stolen), I signal my turns, I always yield the way when I don't have priority (which confuses drivers to no end), I turn left from the left lane, etc.
Now, when it comes to traffic lights...
- I always stop and wait at traffic lights. The big problem is that there are a number of traffic lights around that will not change no matter how long you wait there on your bike and how much you move around to try to set off the loop. My personal example is the Bathurst & Robinson/Carr intersection. This is a huge fustration for cyclists, and leaves them the two options of either moving over to press the button or simply waiting for a gap and running the red.
- I'm a pretty speedy cyclist (perhaps the spare tire gives me lots of momentum?) and when I'm cycling home down Queen I always find myself struggling to overtake slower cyclists in the narrow space between the parked cars and the traffic lane, only to come to a stop at a red traffic light and be overtaken by that slow cyclist as they cruise through the red light, forcing me to struggle to overtake them again. ARRRGH!!!
Exactly. That's all I ask. Bend and break the rules if you wish, just be willing to accept the concequences if anything does happen. The most important thing is not to be stupid about it, right? Not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign when there is traffic and pedestrians in your path is stupid, not coming to a complete stop after looking around to ensure that there is no traffic that you need to yield to is a whole different matter.
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Personally, I'm someone who generally follows rules (except for in the cases I cite) and curses those who give cyclists a bad name. I had a bell and lights for my bike (before it was stolen), I signal my turns, I always yield the way when I don't have priority (which confuses drivers to no end), I turn left from the left lane, etc.
Now, when it comes to traffic lights...
- I always stop and wait at traffic lights. The big problem is that there are a number of traffic lights around that will not change no matter how long you wait there on your bike and how much you move around to try to set off the loop. My personal example is the Bathurst & Robinson/Carr intersection. This is a huge fustration for cyclists, and leaves them the two options of either moving over to press the button or simply waiting for a gap and running the red.
- I'm a pretty speedy cyclist (perhaps the spare tire gives me lots of momentum?) and when I'm cycling home down Queen I always find myself struggling to overtake slower cyclists in the narrow space between the parked cars and the traffic lane, only to come to a stop at a red traffic light and be overtaken by that slow cyclist as they cruise through the red light, forcing me to struggle to overtake them again. ARRRGH!!!
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cassiusa
Guest
^ Hahah. That's so true, cdl. I always (of course) stop at red lights, and even stop signs, but along Queen it's particularly annoying how many bikers ride slowly yet feel the need to run red lights. Passing them is often pointless because you always end up being behind that person again as soon as you hit a red light.
As far as signaling my turns, I don't often do it. I will do it when I feel a motorist needs warning of what I'm about to do. Either if it's the car behind me or a car taking a left from traffic coming in the opposite direction. That way they know they can start going further into the intersection to take their left.
And what you said about obeying stop signs - it definitely confuses drivers when you come to a complete stop as well.
As far as signaling my turns, I don't often do it. I will do it when I feel a motorist needs warning of what I'm about to do. Either if it's the car behind me or a car taking a left from traffic coming in the opposite direction. That way they know they can start going further into the intersection to take their left.
And what you said about obeying stop signs - it definitely confuses drivers when you come to a complete stop as well.