Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[k10ery]

Kennedy.

Would you build a billion-dollar LRT project and tell the riders that not only will it go through the surface traffic around a highway, but then you will have to change several levels to get to and from the subway? They wouldn't dare. The old legacy interchanges at Broadview etc. are part of the landscape, but they aren't going to ask 5,000 persons an hour or even half that to climb all the way to the surface at a new one.

Yes, I see the point. But I think it's 3000 alighting at Don Mills at peak hour, according to the models. There's got to be that many of more doing the same at Bathurst and Broadview. It's not that bad, imo.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Yes, I see the point. But I think it's 3000 alighting at Don Mills at peak hour, according to the models. There's got to be that many of more doing the same at Bathurst and Broadview. It's not that bad, imo.

I agree that it's not that bad, though I thought the peak ridership was estimated at 5400 [I checked - 3000 is correct]. I haven't been at Don Mills for quite a while but I think it's deeper than the older lines too. Remember, the new and improved Kennedy was going to be a short flight of stairs up and then about 75 feet north to the LRT, but we are escaping that fresh hell at the cost of 1.5 billion.

 

[WislaHD]

Or, Option 5. Take the Sheppard bus to Don Mills. Go downtown and right the waterfront east streetcar built with the money you gave up.

I like option 5.

Why are we wasting money on Scarborough transit anyway? Scarborough's built form is terrible, terrible for rapid transit, it is a car-oriented environment that is unlike to change. An in-median LRT is not going to be a catalyst for anything but more condo towers. Sheppard East hardly justifies LRT east of Agincourt anyway, ridership drops off significantly east of Victoria Park and buses can continue to serve Sheppard East just fine. Even better, Scarborough voters are content with buses and have said time and time again that they do not want rapid transit investment.

Humber Bay Shores and Liberty Village are literally screaming for better transit. 1.2B should be way more than needed to build the WWLRT.

 

[smallspy]

Humber Bay Shores.... are literally screaming for better transit.

Are they? They keep getting offered better transit and refuse to take it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Filip]

Are they? They keep getting offered better transit and refuse to take it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

LOL what are you smoking? I've lived here for 17 years and I can't think of 'better' transit being offered.. Ever.

1) Park Lawn Loop = (TTC): No money
2) GO Station at Park Lawn = (Metrolinx): too close to Mimico
3) 145 Express Bus = (TTC): not enough ridership we will cancel, 1 year later and people routinely stand on the bus to get downtown, for a premium double fare mind you.
4) 501 improvements = (TTC): will affect service on Queen

I'm sure I'm missing something here...

 

[ehlow]

Shouldn't they just add GO Lakeshore stop at Humber Bay Shores?

 

[smallspy]

LOL what are you smoking? I've lived here for 17 years and I can't think of 'better' transit being offered.. Ever.

So you're telling me that the Prince Edward bus hasn't been run more frequently and lengthened over the past 15 years? That the express bus that should have been cut due to poor ridership 4 years ago still isn't running?

Because you're wrong on both counts.

So please, try again.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Filip]

So you're telling me that the Prince Edward bus hasn't been run more frequently and lengthened over the past 15 years? That the express bus that should have been cut due to poor ridership 4 years ago still isn't running?

Because you're wrong on both counts.

So please, try again.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

And the community is refusing these improvements?

The 66D is garbage and needs a complete rethink. Both branches should terminate in Humber Bay Shores (not the loop, but the wider Marine Parade loop) - the frequencies on Prince Edward (a suburban white picket fence street with little to no ridership) is ridiculous. However, 15 mins between buses at HBS.

The 145 Express was having its ridership lowballed. We did our own counts, provided it to our Councillor and he raised it at the TTC. The route stayed. The TTC actually had the audacity to fudge the numbers... I mean really? We had the counter guys on our bus and kept checking what they were writing vs. what we were writing. Overpaid idiots who need to take Grade 1 math once more.

PS: my favourite is when they did their ridership counts during the week leading up to Christmas. That was the 'evidence' to axe the route 3 years ago.

 

[mdrejhon]

Shouldn't they just add GO Lakeshore stop at Humber Bay Shores?

Hopefully they eventually add a GO RER infill station near the huge condo clusters at Humber Bay near Park Lawn. That brings a lot of residents within walking distance of speedy transit to downtown, and for access to other future major mobility hubs such as Oakville and Mississauga (via Hurontario LRT). It makes perfect sense for an infill station between Mimico and Exhibition, since Mimico is not within walking distance, and the streetcar is not enough in 10 years when GO RER is running or almost running. It's an in-fill shoo-in by the 2020's. The proposed hourly AD2W Hamilton diesel semiexpresses can bypass the station, keeping things fast down the line, while giving Humber Bay 15-min GO RER service.

^ Furthermore, let's not forget that suburban, 2-car LRT trains will bring up to 300 riders at once.

To be clear to other readers initially confused by this as most here has never seen a chained LRT -- that's 2 chained LRT cars of 5 bendable segments -- so 10 segments! Quite the sight of a long surface vehicle passing a road when it passes properly-prioritized surface intersections (in certain cities using chained LRTs, with the LRTs triggering and highly efficiently holding down the green light until it passes). They whoosh through intersections, unlike legacy streetcars, including the inefficiently-set-up St. Clair route.

 

[ehlow]

Hopefully they eventually add a GO RER infill station near the huge condo cluster at Humber Bay near Park Lawn. That brings a lot of residents within walking distance of speedy transit to downtown. It makes perfectly sense for an infill station between Mimico and Exhibition, since Mimico is not within walking distance, and the streetcar is not enough in 10 years when GO RER is running or almost running.

Exactly, there's already 30 min all day two way service on Lakeshore. They'll be adding even more service incrementally over the next 10 years for GO RER.

Add one stop for the condo cluster at Humber Bay. There's already a stop at Liberty Village. Add one stop either at Sheppard or Bathurst somewhere between the two, if possible.

After increasing service enough and making fares integrated & affordable, it becomes a fast transit line that connects these communities to Union & downtown.

To be clear to other readers initially confused by this as most here has never seen a chained LRT -- that's 2 chained LRT cars of 5 bendable segments -- so 10 segments! Quite the sight of a long surface vehicle passing a road when it passes properly-prioritized surface intersections (in certain cities using chained LRTs, with the LRTs triggering and highly efficiently holding down the green light until it passes). They whoosh through intersections, unlike legacy streetcars, including the inefficiently-set-up St. Clair route.

Trains can be very long once you chain multiple cars together. Ottawa and Eglinton will be able to run pretty long trains.

 

[nfitz]

LOL what are you smoking? I've lived here for 17 years and I can't think of 'better' transit being offered.. Ever.

1) Park Lawn Loop = (TTC): No money
2) GO Station at Park Lawn = (Metrolinx): too close to Mimico
3) 145 Express Bus = (TTC): not enough ridership we will cancel, 1 year later and people routinely stand on the bus to get downtown, for a premium double fare mind you.
4) 501 improvements = (TTC): will affect service on Queen

I'm sure I'm missing something here...

I'm missing how the 145 Express Bus has been operating for 17 years. Has it really been going since 1998? I thought it was more recent.

 

[Filip]

I'm missing how the 145 Express Bus has been operating for 17 years. Has it really been going since 1998? I thought it was more recent.

It's a premium, peak period route - that's not an improvement IMO.

Improvement would be this route at regular fare, running all day.

 

[muller877]

And the community is refusing these improvements?

The 66D is garbage and needs a complete rethink. Both branches should terminate in Humber Bay Shores (not the loop, but the wider Marine Parade loop) - the frequencies on Prince Edward (a suburban white picket fence street with little to no ridership) is ridiculous. However, 15 mins between buses at HBS.

The 145 Express was having its ridership lowballed. We did our own counts, provided it to our Councillor and he raised it at the TTC. The route stayed. The TTC actually had the audacity to fudge the numbers... I mean really? We had the counter guys on our bus and kept checking what they were writing vs. what we were writing. Overpaid idiots who need to take Grade 1 math once more.

PS: my favourite is when they did their ridership counts during the week leading up to Christmas. That was the 'evidence' to axe the route 3 years ago.

I thought all the 66 buses are pretty full during rush hour (there is even pretty decent contra flow movements). This is a service that demands more frequent service. 15 years ago there were only 2 towers down there and a bunch of run down motels and now look at it. It's like saying Liberty Village has plenty of service because we've added a couple of streetcars to the King service.

The other reason for increasing the quality of service on the 66 is to move people off the already overcrowded streetcar service along King and Queen.

I kinda agree with GO that Mimico is too close. But the better question is why is Mimico a stop? Why not MOVE the stop from Royal York to Parklawn (or even better the Humber Bay loop so it links to the streetcar service)? It's only at Royal York right now for the staff at the Willowbrook yard (and about 100 parking spots). There is precedent's for this type of move. For example the Bronte stop moved from Bronte to 3rd line (about the same distance).

The east end of the station could be at the Humber Bay loop and the west end of the station would be near where there is already an underpass under the Gardiner (Lakeshore West).

The Province could look at funding this via land sales at the Humber loop, Mimico parking lot and at the Ontario food terminal (there is a lot of land there that looks like it is used primarily for longer term parking of trailers).

 

[Electrify]

I am thinking of alternatives to the Sheppard LRT plan, that might be better received by the public and politicians in Scarborough, but do not cost way more than the said LRT.

Option 1: Build Sheppard LRT, but use high-floor vehicles that can easily fit into the existing subway tunnel. Most of the new tracks will be on surface.

That would cost somewhat more than the low-floor LRT plan, since the surface stations will have to be more elaborate in order to be accessible. But it still much cheaper than a subway extension, and the LRT can reach the east end of Scarborough, unlike the subway that can only go as far as McCowan or STC.

Option 2: Defer transit improvements on the central section of Sheppard, and build a shorter LRT that connects the Scarborough Subway terminus with eastern Scarborough. The line would start either at Sheppard & McCowan, or at STC; and go to the Zoo, with a branch to Malvern Centre.

That would improve transit in the east end, while keeping the Sheppard subway dream alive (though no actual subway extension anytime soon).

Option 3: Build BRT on Sheppard. This is a cheap option, and keeps the Sheppard subway dream alive (smaller sunk cost for BRT, hence more chances for an upgrade to subway, theoretically). The only problem is the Hwy 404 crossing and the connection to Don Mills subway. That connection is easier to build properly for the LRT than for the bus.

Option 4: Defer Sheppard altogether, and build the "Scarborough-Malvern" LRT, as has been already suggested here. That will be a very useful line indeed.

With enough money on the table, Option #4 may even be combined with #2.

I suggested this a few pages back, though it seems to have been overlooked. Tender an order for dual mode high floor trains and redesign the stops on Sheppard with ramps. Suddenly we have a through route between Yonge and Morningside.

 

[gweed123]

I suggested this a few pages back, though it seems to have been overlooked. Tender an order for dual mode high floor trains and redesign the stops on Sheppard with ramps. Suddenly we have a through route between Yonge and Morningside.

This would make Sheppard incompatible with every other line on the system, but if it's long enough then it shouldn't matter too much. I agree that it is a sensible solution, and the cost differential between high platform surface stations, and either Sheppard Subway conversion to low-floor LRT or extension of the subway is huge (in favour of the high platforms). It may also get the TTC to cut a couple of stops, which would speed the line up too.