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Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

nfitz said:
If the province would stick to the commitments they had already made and not back John Tory's DumbTrack ideas, we'd be a lot further ahead than we are. The government needs to keep it's promises. I'm not sure why so many are so eager to let them off the hook and celebrate further delay on the Finch LRT.
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Nobody is letting anybody off the hook. Toronto has decided that the DRL is not a priority for them. It wasn't a priority under Ford and it's not a priority. Tory and by extension Toronto have decided that Smart Track is their number one transit priority, so why shouldn't the province support it. Look at Mississauga, they have been pushing the Hurontario LRT as their number one transit project for many years and now that funding is available its been funded. If Toronto had been more proactive in their support for the DRL, maybe it would receive more attention from the province.

The province is at fault for the transit mess we are in but most of Toronto's transit planning mess is their own mess. They dither too many times on plans and allow the likes of Ford and now Tory to draw up new plans and waste our collective time. They have no one to blame but themselves.
 
Adjei said:
The SRT issue wasn't even relevant in the 2011 election. It only became an issue when the Liberals decided to support for the byelection in 2013. A byelection is different from a more general election and you have more local issues which become more relevant. The Liberals didn't have the Sheppard subway in their 2014 election platform but yet they still won all those Scarborough seats. People are more concerned in general elections with the economy and jobs than about subways.

Even if the Liberals do support it, they could always say they will only contribute the amount that they will be contributing for the LRT and leave the city to find the rest of the money like exactly what happened with the Scarborough RT.
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Right, but why support it in the byelection, when you were going to win anyway. Point is they caved before, and we have no reason as to why they won't again. This is politics and that's a shame.

Adjei said:
Nobody is letting anybody off the hook. Toronto has decided that the DRL is not a priority for them. It wasn't a priority under Ford and it's not a priority. Tory and by extension Toronto have decided that Smart Track is their number one transit priority, so why shouldn't the province support it. Look at Mississauga, they have been pushing the Hurontario LRT as their number one transit project for many years and now that funding is available its been funded. If Toronto had been more proactive in their support for the DRL, maybe it would receive more attention from the province.

The province is at fault for the transit mess we are in but most of Toronto's transit planning mess is their own mess. They dither too many times on plans and allow the likes of Ford and now Tory to draw up new plans and waste our collective time. They have no one to blame but themselves.
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This is the voters fault. They want everything, and what to pay nothing. That's not how it works. This was canceled because of apathetic voters.
 
I am thinking of alternatives to the Sheppard LRT plan, that might be better received by the public and politicians in Scarborough, but do not cost way more than the said LRT.

Option 1: Build Sheppard LRT, but use high-floor vehicles that can easily fit into the existing subway tunnel. Most of the new tracks will be on surface.

That would cost somewhat more than the low-floor LRT plan, since the surface stations will have to be more elaborate in order to be accessible. But it still much cheaper than a subway extension, and the LRT can reach the east end of Scarborough, unlike the subway that can only go as far as McCowan or STC.

Option 2: Defer transit improvements on the central section of Sheppard, and build a shorter LRT that connects the Scarborough Subway terminus with eastern Scarborough. The line would start either at Sheppard & McCowan, or at STC; and go to the Zoo, with a branch to Malvern Centre.

That would improve transit in the east end, while keeping the Sheppard subway dream alive (though no actual subway extension anytime soon).

Option 3: Build BRT on Sheppard. This is a cheap option, and keeps the Sheppard subway dream alive (smaller sunk cost for BRT, hence more chances for an upgrade to subway, theoretically). The only problem is the Hwy 404 crossing and the connection to Don Mills subway. That connection is easier to build properly for the LRT than for the bus.

Option 4: Defer Sheppard altogether, and build the "Scarborough-Malvern" LRT, as has been already suggested here. That will be a very useful line indeed.

With enough money on the table, Option #4 may even be combined with #2.
 
Or, Option 5. Take the Sheppard bus to Don Mills. Go downtown and right the waterfront east streetcar built with the money you gave up.
 
M II A II R II K said:
They could at least redirect the funds to build a full Finch West LRT from Yonge. Hopefully that won't be too much at once.
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It's a bit of a side issue now, but could somebody explain why TTC feels that surface LRT must connect to the subway underground? It adds enormously to the cost. I'm thinking not only of Don Mills where it means tunnelling all the way under the 404 but also Finch, Finch West, and even the plans for Queen's Quay East? What's wrong with a surface station like at Bathurst, Dundas West, etc.? There is likely space for that on the suburban lines. And where there is not, I can still imagine a mid street platform working, if it were larger than usual, covered, and had several working escalators.

Why does surface LRT need all these expensive tunnels?
 
k10ery said:
It's a bit of a side issue now, but could somebody explain why TTC feels that surface LRT must connect to the subway underground? It adds enormously to the cost. I'm thinking not only of Don Mills where it means tunnelling all the way under the 404 but also Finch, Finch West, and even the plans for Queen's Quay East? What's wrong with a surface station like at Bathurst, Dundas West, etc.? There is likely space for that on the suburban lines. And where there is not, I can still imagine a mid street platform working, if it were larger than usual, covered, and had several working escalators.

Why does surface LRT need all these expensive tunnels?
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The Finch West station is supposed to be only a "temporary" terminal, for Phase one. Phase two would continue onto Yonge. There were several designs for the Yonge station, some underground, some on the side.

When the Bloor streetcar transferred passengers at the Yonge subway, it was also surface.
streetcar-4115-07.jpg


Guess to protect passengers from the elements, they decided to go with an underground transfer instead for the Finch West station.
 

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CDL.TO said:
It's an interesting idea, but Presto, as planned, won't require people to tap off, so you have other complications that you would have to work out.
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Good point, I hadn't thought about that. But what I'm proposing is just a special kind of zone fare, so I hope the presto people HAVE thought about it.

For example you could make all of the Yonge line a premium zone during rush hours. But people would have the option to tap off at certain non premium stations to avoid the congestion charge. For example, someone getting on at Wellesley at morning rush would pay if they disembark at King, but not if they tap off at Finch. And someone starting at finch would not pay if they tap off at Lawrence (assuming it's not congested there) and maybe not if they tap off at St Andrew (they took up a seat on the Yonge line, but at least they did not add to congestion at Bloor or at Union stations).

Whatever. Those are secondary choices. The main thing is to get people in North Toronto to take the bus west to Lawrence West instead of east to Lawrence Station. And so on along the line.

The idea is we already have a relief line. It's the subway running down the middle of Allen Road. Unfortunately we put it in the wrong place so the investment is underused.

I really wonder if this little bit of economics could save us from needing to spend billions on the DRL for an additional decade or more.
 
W. K. Lis said:
The Finch West station is supposed to be only a "temporary" terminal, for Phase one. Phase two would continue onto Yonge.
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A temporary terminal perhaps, but a permanent structure. Doesn't the EA that goes all the way from Yonge to Humber show the Finch West stop being underground?
 
gweed123 said:
That was my understanding, yes. Much like St. Clair West station, from what I remember.
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I thought it would be on the main track itself, rather than on a loop. I don't think there's a comparable example - except the new Don Mills station on the Eglinton line.
 
k10ery said:
It's a bit of a side issue now, but could somebody explain why TTC feels that surface LRT must connect to the subway underground? It adds enormously to the cost. I'm thinking not only of Don Mills where it means tunnelling all the way under the 404 but also Finch, Finch West, and even the plans for Queen's Quay East? What's wrong with a surface station like at Bathurst, Dundas West, etc.? There is likely space for that on the suburban lines. And where there is not, I can still imagine a mid street platform working, if it were larger than usual, covered, and had several working escalators.

Why does surface LRT need all these expensive tunnels?
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Kennedy.

Would you build a billion-dollar LRT project and tell the riders that not only will it go through the surface traffic around a highway, but then you will have to change several levels to get to and from the subway? They wouldn't dare. The old legacy interchanges at Broadview etc. are part of the landscape, but they aren't going to ask 5,000 persons an hour or even half that to climb all the way to the surface at a new one.
 
^ Furthermore, let's not forget that suburban, 2-car LRT trains will bring up to 300 riders at once. If they all start crossing traffic lanes at the surface level, it will be quite a parade.

Legacy / downtown steetcars are much smaller. ALRT carries up to 120 people; the newest Flexity LRV, perhaps 150.
 
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