Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Swarley]

Stepped out the door this morning to notice the main headline on today's Toronto Star is:

TTC to give Presto cards green light

Looks like TTC will adopt Presto ... if they can find the money. Possibly starting with the subway.

It's good that it looks like this will be sorted out before they start putting the new streetcar fare collection units on vehicles and at stops.

Ugggh... given my experience with Presto so far I'm not a fan of this. The system as it is has been designed from the ground up for GO customers and the average TTC customer is very different... people shouldn't have to trek to Union to reset a negative balance, for one instance.
This also seems like it'll be a huge money pit but that's another issue.

 

[BMO]

Ugggh... given my experience with Presto so far I'm not a fan of this. The system as it is has been designed from the ground up for GO customers and the average TTC customer is very different... people shouldn't have to trek to Union to reset a negative balance, for one instance.
This also seems like it'll be a huge money pit but that's another issue.

well obviously it was meant for GO form the ground-up considering TTC was kicking and screaming about it for the past 2 years...

Give it time, like any new implementation of technology systems, there are some hiccups to overcome in the beginning. Theoretically if you use your presto card, it will be either the same cost of using a metropass, or even cheaper if you don't end up using as many trips as are warranted for the cost of a metropass.

 

[TOareaFan]

Comparing the PRESTO card to a Tim Hortons card I don't believe is fair - they are completely different technologies (as I understand it). A Tim Hortons card doesnt carry a dollar balance on it - it is stored on a central computer somewhere. The PRESTO card carries the balance on the card and you can even query your last 10 transactions at one of the balance checker machines located in most GO stations. WHen I called PRESTO to ask some technical questions, I was called back by a technician on the project and he told me that the system was designed for speed, to accomdate a high passenger flow. Its not that quick at a Tim Hortons store when multiple people in front of you are paying with their Tim Horton's card.

I also met someone who is on the roll-out team and they explained the strategy they chose for implementing PRESTO. I've been doing deployments for many years now and after listening to many of the challenges they are facing, I was impresssed. I only wish I had the luxury to stage implementation of some of our systems where I work - I'm sure we would have had more luck with our deployments. I hope the PRESTO system stays around. I personally haven't had any problems with it and I would miss it if they abandoned it. Just my two cents.

Firstly, I only compared the ease of dollar loading on Timcards relative to Prestocards. As a user with both I can tell you there is no comparison. When I first got my Timcard, I set up an autoreload that took me about 3 minutes on a very intuitive website. It worked that first time (ie. as I left the house I had access to the money that had been loaded) and has worked every time since then. I am now about 4 or 5 months after setting up my presto reload and it has never worked.

Secondly, the systems may be different behind the scenes and in terms of technology but in the key area of customer interface and useability they are identical. That is, both companies advertise and sell the service and convenience aspect. Pre-load your card, set it up for autoload and you will never have to worry about having change for coffee/transit again. Only one, IMO, has come close to delivering that. The vast majority of the people who use the cards do not know (nor care) about the complexities of one over the other they just know what was promised and what was delivered. An even bigger majority will never get to have (nor would they want to have) a reassuring conversation with someone from the rollout team......"just give us a card that works as promised"...that would be the refrain from the populace.

 

[M II A II R II K]

I still think it's use should have a reduced rate, particularly when you cross the 905 boundaries and/or use GO.

 

[nfitz]

Ugggh... given my experience with Presto so far I'm not a fan of this. The system as it is has been designed from the ground up for GO customers and the average TTC customer is very different... people shouldn't have to trek to Union to reset a negative balance, for one instance.

Ah, but with 85% of transit rides being on the TTC, then the tail will ultimately wag the dog. I can't imagine that you'd have to trek to Union to reset a negative balance when it is fully implemented ... I didn't think you even had to now, can't you do that at most GO railway stations?

I still think it's use should have a reduced rate, particularly when you cross the 905 boundaries and/or use GO.

Easily accomplished. I'd think that once it is 100% rolled out, agencies would eliminate tickets, tokens, 10-ride trips, and physical passes. At that point, it would have a reduced rate.

 

[RedRocket191]

Ah, but with 85% of transit rides being on the TTC, then the tail will ultimately wag the dog. I can't imagine that you'd have to trek to Union to reset a negative balance when it is fully implemented ... I didn't think you even had to now, can't you do that at most GO railway stations?

Correct. You can reset a negative balance at any GO railway station or even any staffed bus terminal for participating Presto systems. There is no reason why every subway station couldn't be a full service Presto counter.

 

[nfitz]

The TTC report on accepting Presto is now on-line - http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...pplementary_Reports/Electronic_Fare_Coll1.pdf

It's pretty much what one would expect. The only thing that jumped out at me was a clear statement in the TTC's open-payment RFP that says the open-payment system "must be able to accept and process a fare payment from a PRESTO card".

So there was never a question that Presto wouldn't have been usable at TTC if they went their own system. And a lot more about TTC trying to sell the open-payment rights as a PPP to provide funding to install the system.

 

[valvenis]

Just like Rob Ford's plan for Sheppard subway extension is based on fairy-dust accounting, so is the idea to scrap the Open Payment System for an underfunded and problematic PRESTO system.

 

[BMO]

Just like Rob Ford's plan for Sheppard subway extension is based on fairy-dust accounting, so is the idea to scrap the Open Payment System for an underfunded and problematic PRESTO system.

it's underfunded because the TTC is broke and doesn't even have enough money to wipe its own ass. The Fed's and the Province have chipped in together 2/3rds of the cost for implementing it throughout all the systems, and the transit system chips in for the last 1/3rd.

Presto is not without faults, but it's a start. It's really hard to judge Presto on the basis of it's current reach, it was meant to be an easy way to travel on multiple transit systems, as it stands it's not really serving that focus, its kind of confined to replacing the old fare systems on the existing transit systems and people using it for domestic trips within one system unfortunately. Although I imagine the initial fare issues encountered on these newly implemented agencies will be dealt with quickly. Think of it like going from windows xp to Vista. Vista is inherently got a lot of problems due to its new technology, soon enough Windows 7 came along which is extremely stable and works very well, and ultimately is much much better than XP. We're just going through that transition from an old system to newer technology that needs to get all the kinks ironed out.

 

[DavidH]

Can someone please explain to me the real world appeal of open payments? Is the idea of standing at a bus stop and pulling out ones credit card, bank card, or one's cell phone in order to pay a fare really attractive to anyone. I understand the appeal of being able to use a cell phone for NFC purchases at stores, eventually, but those are relatively secure environments compared to the sidewalk.

Seems to me that the best thing about the current Presto is that should you lose the card, it ONLY impacts the transit riding part of your life.

 

[BMO]

Can someone please explain to me the real world appeal of open payments? Is the idea of standing at a bus stop and pulling out ones credit card, bank card, or one's cell phone in order to pay a fare really attractive to anyone. I understand the appeal of being able to use a cell phone for NFC purchases at stores, eventually, but those are relatively secure environments compared to the sidewalk.

Seems to me that the best thing about the current Presto is that should you lose the card, it ONLY impacts the transit riding part of your life.

Essentially it is more convenient for people to be able to just tap their visa card and pay with the same card that they likely pay the rest of their expenses on. In this day and age where most things are paid for through credit as opposed to physical cash, it is much easier to just tap the credit card and get the exact fare deducted either from your bank account or from your credit. You don't have to search for exact change or purchase tokens/ tickets, and you won't need to purchase metropass. It also saves money on operating as well considering substantially less physical money would have to be counted and transported etc, and I presume eventually they could phase-out or get rid of the metropass and tokens altogether. I forget where I heard this, but i think the TTC gets it's currency tokens made shipped from one of the Mints. All that adds up and can create substantial operating savigns, and improved customer convenience.

I know for a fact that if I could pay for the bus with just my credit card I would use it instead of having to purchase a full metropass. I think right now only a few stations on the subway line even allow you to purchase tickets/ metropasses with a credit card. Kind of rediculous considering it's the 21st century and almost any establishment now accepts credit card as a payment option.

 

[valvenis]

The TTC's money problems don't excuse the fact that Presto's not a good idea. Presto’s not being run by people who know what they’re doing and it shows.

The TTC carries significantly more people than the other systems and has many more vehicles and routes. One just has to take a look at the problems Presto's having now on a much smaller stage and easily imagine what would go wrong once they stepped up to the big leagues.

Look at the issue of interregional travel: They've known that interregional fares would be a huge issue for the TTC and should have found a solution years ago. But they still don't have a solution.

The TTC isn't freely choosing Presto because it evaluated all of the options available and found that Presto was the best choice. According to the TTC Memo: ELECTRONIC FARE COLLECTION AT THE TTC, they did it because:
"Over the past few years, the Province has implemented specific programs to provide a range of funding for transit and the TTC. The Province and Metrolinx have indicated that the funding for some of these programs is contingent upon TTC's participation in PRESTO. The specific programs are: Provincial gas tax ($161M in 2010); purchase of new streetcars ($417M); and the recent MOU which includes the Eglinton and Scarborough transit initiatives (approximately $8B)."

If it was such a great system, you wouldn't need to blackmail the TTC to use it. The "upgrade" to Presto is more like being forced to go to a restaurant with badly underprepared and overpriced food, where someone else picks what food you get to eat, and leaves you with the bill.

 

[BMO]

The TTC's money problems don't excuse the fact that Presto's not a good idea. Presto’s not being run by people who know what they’re doing and it shows.

The TTC carries significantly more people than the other systems and has many more vehicles and routes. One just has to take a look at the problems Presto's having now on a much smaller stage and easily imagine what would go wrong once they stepped up to the big leagues.

Look at the issue of interregional travel: They've known that interregional fares would be a huge issue for the TTC and should have found a solution years ago. But they still don't have a solution.

The TTC isn't freely choosing Presto because it evaluated all of the options available and found that Presto was the best choice. According to the TTC Memo: ELECTRONIC FARE COLLECTION AT THE TTC, they did it because:
"Over the past few years, the Province has implemented specific programs to provide a range of funding for transit and the TTC. The Province and Metrolinx have indicated that the funding for some of these programs is contingent upon TTC's participation in PRESTO. The specific programs are: Provincial gas tax ($161M in 2010); purchase of new streetcars ($417M); and the recent MOU which includes the Eglinton and Scarborough transit initiatives (approximately $8B)."

If it was such a great system, you wouldn't need to blackmail the TTC to use it. The "upgrade" to Presto is more like being forced to go to a restaurant with badly underprepared and overpriced food, where someone else picks what food you get to eat, and leaves you with the bill.

well considering the TTC was essentially blackmailing the Province for the past few months acting like it wasn't going to implement Presto, just so that the Province would foot the whole bill. Everyone knew it was going to go this way. I don't know why it's a surprise, and why you're being so naive to think that this isn't what the TTC wanted all along. They just didn't want to pay for it. That's why they were looking for bids for an open payment system, because then the risk would have been passed onto a private supplier who would manage and implement the system at a much smaller cost to the TTC. NOT because it was a better system or technology.

And to say that it's plagued with problems when it was only implemented less than a year ago isn't fair at all. Even better systems in London and Hong Kong have had their issues.

 

[nfitz]

well considering the TTC was essentially blackmailing the Province for the past few months acting like it wasn't going to implement Presto, just so that the Province would foot the whole bill. Everyone knew it was going to go this way. I don't know why it's a surprise, and why you're being so naive to think that this isn't what the TTC wanted all along.

Agreed. TTC seems to have won a huge victory here. Metrolinx/Preso have addresses all of TTC's concerns, promised to implement Open Payment on the same time-frame that TTC roll-out should be getting to completion, as well as having gotten commitments that TTC won't have to kick in the extra cash to implement Presto.

Being the last agency to come on board with Presto, I don't think concerns about the management, etc., should be a problem. If the system is by then successfully handling, Hamilton, Mississauga, York, GO, and Ottawa, then it will only be a scaling issue to get it to handle TTC. By that point, they should well understand the issues.

I'm not sure what the issue with interregional fares is. As TTC doesn't have these, then there's nothing complex to implement! Presto is already handling $2.50 payments at subway stations just fine - the TTC Times Two can be done simply by taking a transfer after you use your Presto card by entering the station.

I can see that it will be difficult, if not impossible, for Presto to implement TTC's bizarre transfer rules. In my mind this is a good thing, as it will force TTC to implement a simpler time-based transfer system such as done by every other agency ... and on the 512 Streetcar route.

 

[rbt]

it's underfunded because the TTC is broke and doesn't even have enough money to wipe its own ass. The Fed's and the Province have chipped in together 2/3rds of the cost for implementing it throughout all the systems, and the transit system chips in for the last 1/3rd.

Except for the TTC where they've chipped in about 1/3rd and have left 2/3rds for the TTC to come up with.

Total expected cost: $300M or more

Contributions thus far toward Presto on TTC:
Feds: $46M
Province: $46M
TTC: $46M