Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[rbt]

I think overall with the same system throughout the entire GTA it allows Metrolinx to find efficiencies through the same payment system, and adjust pricing based on ridership etc. With a different system on the TTC I would imagine it would be fairly difficult to electronically control both different systems together, I.e. if it's ALL Presto then Metrolinx can just adjust the pricing electronically from their office.

There are well defined specifications for exchange of financial data (which this is). If Presto really is a monolithic design then we have some serious problems. I.e. If an agent working on the network in Ottawa can cause an outage in Toronto in any way, then the system is broken by design.

Either there are multiple different Presto installations which inter-communicate; or the next decade is going to be a pretty wild ride with Ontario wide outages.

Big difference between assembling all of the data into a single interface for a call center rep and actually having a monolithic system.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Why Presto? Should it not be named after a Crustacean like squid or jellyfish or something.

 

[BMO]

sorry to go off the immediate topic a bit, but I would really love to see Presto implemented on Taxis.

 

[dlam]

Why Presto? Should it not be named after a Crustacean like squid or jellyfish or something.

I think London's name "Oyster" is dumb, while Hong Kong's "Octopus" makes perfect sense because it is taken from the Chinese name which the literally meaning is "8 ways connected". The 8 ways referred to "north, north-east, east, south-south, etc.. In essence, this card allows you to go everywhere, which it does very well used as a debit card, key access to offices, and of course public transit. The Octopus name is just a play on words with the Chinese name.

 

[Komiksulo]

sorry to go off the immediate topic a bit, but I would really love to see Presto implemented on Taxis.

That's a great idea! I wonder how expensive it would be to do for each cab?

 

[nfitz]

I think London's name "Oyster" is dumb, while Hong Kong's "Octopus" makes perfect sense because it is taken from the Chinese name which the literally meaning is "8 ways connected". The 8 ways referred to "north, north-east, east, south-south, etc.. In essence, this card allows you to go everywhere, which it does very well used as a debit card, key access to offices, and of course public transit. The Octopus name is just a play on words with the Chinese name.

I don't understand the need for commentary on this. Given the saying "the world is your Oyster", I'd have thought the London card name made perfect sense. Perhaps you haven't studied enough Shakespeare?

 

[BMO]

I don't understand the need for commentary on this. Given the saying "the world is your Oyster", I'd have thought the London card name made perfect sense. Perhaps you haven't studied enough Shakespeare?

 

[Mapleson]

No, it doesn't. There is nothing that the TTC requires which the Greater Vancouver Area does not. They have just as many stations, they have roaming fare inspectors, and they have nearly as many mobile vehicles.

The entire transit system for the Greater Vancouver Area isn't all that different from the TTC. In fact, the Vancouver ferry terminal may have a higher peak transaction rate than TTCs busiest stations like King. Yonge/Bloor has few people going through fare gates (entering or leaving).

Capital was a concern but the Open Payment tender fell under the operations budget and required a lower bid to build/operate than the current fare system. I can only assume this tender complied with TTCs current union agreements as we do not have access to either their union agreement or the details of the bids. If I could, I would directly compare Presto costs to these bids.

We do know that Accenture did not bid on that contract and that they were not excluded from doing so.

The TTC has over 2000 buses; Translink has under 1300. The TTC has 69 stations; There are 47 stations on the SkyTrain system. That's 50% more buses and stations for installations.

Cubics, the same company that is doing Vancouver's system, declined to submit a bid. In fact, of the three pre-qualified vendors, only one (ACS TRANSPORT SOLUTIONS) submitted it, which we can't see until next Wednesday.

As for Oyster, another part of the naming was the visualization of the protective shell enclosing the precious pearl, giving people a sense of security for this new payment method.

 

[rbt]

The TTC has over 2000 buses; Translink has under 1300. The TTC has 69 stations; There are 47 stations on the SkyTrain system. That's 50% more buses and stations for installations.

Translink covers a few more pieces in addition to what you mentioned; but yes, the TTC has 50% more stuff and an estimated 300% more expensive.

 

[Vincent]

well obviously it was meant for GO form the ground-up considering TTC was kicking and screaming about it for the past 2 years...

The system was designed for GO from the ground-up IE, 2006 or even before when the first spec for the card were started.
Well I was a bit surprised to see so many references to GO in the"standard" design document from metrolinx. It was like other SP were afterthoughts.

 

[Mapleson]

Translink covers a few more pieces in addition to what you mentioned; but yes, the TTC has 50% more stuff and an estimated 300% more expensive.

So you are now willing to admit it should cost at least fifty cents on the dollar more for Toronto than Vancouver, solely on volume? While we don't have the actual numbers, will you also admit that TTC's labour costs are out of hand, and probably would be 20-33% higher than a private sector installer? Those two factors along would nearly double the price without considering any other differences, such as Ontario's rules around disposal of disturbed soils.

I'm not defending the Accenture contract or price, I'm just saying you have to take into account all the regional differences if you expect regional prices to be comparible.

 

[rbt]

So you are now willing to admit it should cost at least fifty cents on the dollar more for Toronto than Vancouver, solely on volume? While we don't have the actual numbers, will you also admit that TTC's labour costs are out of hand, and probably would be 20-33% higher than a private sector installer? Those two factors along would nearly double the price without considering any other differences, such as Ontario's rules around disposal of disturbed soils.

Vancouver did not receive as many tendering firms as Toronto did and 2 out of 3 of the above points are capital related. Both tenders included maintenance over a 10+year period. So no, I don't believe the Toronto's would have been at least 50% more. Operations for Toronto's bid, as far as I can tell without reading the actual terms of the bid, was essentially an outsourcing of fare collections department (token/cash counters). This would not make the salary component between Vancouver and Toronto very different.

TTC does have hard facts on this point and has opted not to disclose them. Can you do freedom of information requests for this type of thing?

... I'm just saying you have to take into account all the regional differences if you expect regional prices to be comparable.

Very true.

 

[nfitz]

The assumption seems to be that Translink's open payment cost estimate is much lower than TTC's? Translink is about $170 million. Do we know what the bid TTC received from their tender was? I thought it was within their budget ... so presumably cheaper per unit than Translink.

 

[Mapleson]

Vancouver did not receive as many tendering firms as Toronto did and 2 out of 3 of the above points are capital related. Both tenders included maintenance over a 10+year period. So no, I don't believe the Toronto's would have been at least 50% more. Operations for Toronto's bid, as far as I can tell without reading the actual terms of the bid, was essentially an outsourcing of fare collections department (token/cash counters). This would not make the salary component between Vancouver and Toronto very different.

TTC does have hard facts on this point and has opted not to disclose them. Can you do freedom of information requests for this type of thing?

Toronto received one tender, so I don't know how Vancouver could have received less. I've lost track what you are actually comparing: maintenance between the Cubic's Compass Card and Accenture's Presto Card? If there is 50% more stuff in 50% more locations, why wouldn't the physical maintenance cost more?

The assumption seems to be that Translink's open payment cost estimate is much lower than TTC's? Translink is about $170 million. Do we know what the bid TTC received from their tender was? I thought it was within their budget ... so presumably cheaper per unit than Translink.

ACS Transport Solutions' Open Payment bid to the TTC will be released on June 15 (next Wednesday). However, the terms of reference were the system is to cost no more than the annual operating cost for TTC fare operations at 70 million a year, so a cap of $840 million for capital and operational costs over 12-years (10-year maintenance, 2-year start-up). If Vancouver's Open Fare System were able to come in under that limit, Cubic probably wouldn't have declined to submit a bid after being selected in as pre-qualified.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't really get the whole deal about Open payments. How open is open payments really? If they do bank cards you get nicked with fees. And have they figured out how to do contactless payments with debit cards, without requiring a PIN (that would really slow down the line)? And credit cards have age and income requirements. In this sense, Presto is best because it's accessible to any and all. I get the concern about tourists, but they could easily be dealt with by selling pre-paid fare cards.

And while we're doing Presto, if we weren't, I would have suggested, forget open payments. Give Mastercard an exclusive for 5 years and ask them to install the readers everywhere. Any credit card company would salivate at the chance to monopolize a transit system. Even if they don't make any money from it, the halo effect on their business of having that many transit riders carrying their card, would be huge.