Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Mapleson]

The lack of interregional fares is due to a lack of political will from the surrounding municipalities. There have been many piecemeal deals like the YRT-TTC package or the GO-VIA deals or Burlington and Mississauga Transit sharing routes. Presto isn't just the hardware, it's the political framework that these municipalities agree to a common revenue sharing system.

Complaining that the solution should have been found years ago is as productive as complaining the Allen Street Expressway should have been built. It doesn't change the fact of where we are, nor does it help resolve the situation now.

 

[BMO]

Except for the TTC where they've chipped in about 1/3rd and have left 2/3rds for the TTC to come up with.

Total expected cost: $300M or more

Contributions thus far toward Presto on TTC:
Feds: $46M
Province: $46M
TTC: $46M

Originally the quoted amount before the Presto next phase was added to it, it was a much lower cost estimate.

*edit: but I see where you're coming from rbt

 

[nfitz]

Given that Metrolinx is now committing to get Presto installed at TTC without the city having to come up with any extra money, is there any point in worrying about how we got here?

 

[BMO]

Given that Metrolinx is now committing to get Presto installed at TTC without the city having to come up with any extra money, is there any point in worrying about how we got here?

+1...in the end as long as it gets implemented and works, I'm not going to argue bout it. Although there is something to be said about understanding where the money comes from to pay for it.

 

[valvenis]

Agreed. TTC seems to have won a huge victory here. Metrolinx/Preso have addresses all of TTC's concerns, promised to implement Open Payment on the same time-frame that TTC roll-out should be getting to completion, as well as having gotten commitments that TTC won't have to kick in the extra cash to implement Presto.

Being the last agency to come on board with Presto, I don't think concerns about the management, etc., should be a problem. If the system is by then successfully handling, Hamilton, Mississauga, York, GO, and Ottawa, then it will only be a scaling issue to get it to handle TTC. By that point, they should well understand the issues.

I'm not sure what the issue with interregional fares is. As TTC doesn't have these, then there's nothing complex to implement! Presto is already handling $2.50 payments at subway stations just fine - the TTC Times Two can be done simply by taking a transfer after you use your Presto card by entering the station.

I can see that it will be difficult, if not impossible, for Presto to implement TTC's bizarre transfer rules. In my mind this is a good thing, as it will force TTC to implement a simpler time-based transfer system such as done by every other agency ... and on the 512 Streetcar route.

Seems (emphasis mine) is definitely the most appropriate word. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time the TTC was promised funding for one project or another (Subway, Transit City) only to have it pulled away or delayed indefinitely.

To paraphrase Steve Munro: I won’t believe it until it’s actually built/fully rolled out. Even starting construction/rollout doesn’t guarantee anything – particularly in an election year.

 

[nfitz]

Seems (emphasis mine) is definitely the most appropriate word. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time the TTC was promised funding for one project or another (Subway, Transit City) only to have it pulled away or delayed indefinitely.

To paraphrase Steve Munro: I won’t believe it until it’s actually built/fully rolled out. Even starting construction/rollout doesn’t guarantee anything – particularly in an election year.

Fair enough ... but then TTC simply won't install it then - as they've phrased it all that it's conditional on agreements.

 

[Dan416]

The lack of interregional fares is due to a lack of political will from the surrounding municipalities. There have been many piecemeal deals like the YRT-TTC package or the GO-VIA deals or Burlington and Mississauga Transit sharing routes. Presto isn't just the hardware, it's the political framework that these municipalities agree to a common revenue sharing system.

Maybe Brampton and Mississauga?

 

[ShonTron]

Or Oakville and Burlington? They share the operation of the Lakeshore corridor between Lakeside Plaza and Downtown Burlington on weekdays - OT extended the route 24 that direction a few years ago to augment the peak-only BurlT Route 9.

A small interesting point is that Brampton Transit implemented Presto system-wide, they changed the transfer system from the old cut-off slip to a printed transfer. As such, the 2-hour transfer is effective when the transfer is printed, rather than cut-off from 2 hours (or so) by the driver at the start of the route.

So those using a Presto card instead of cash or ticket fare ends up treated the same. The 65-cent GO co-fare is automatically deducted, but there's no word about how to transfer to MT or YRT - neither of those systems are online yet, though MT looks to be about ready now.

 

[RedRocket191]

...but there's no word about how to transfer to MT or YRT - neither of those systems are online yet, though MT looks to be about ready now.

MT is online, but is not advertising it because there are still bugs. I've heard that the system recognizes the existing free transfer policy between Mississauga and Brampton, and people have reported that transferring from Burlington to Hamilton shows -$0.00 on the reader.

 

[rbt]

Originally the quoted amount before the Presto next phase was added to it, it was a much lower cost estimate.

I've yet to figure out how Presto phase 2 can reduce the cost unless it eliminates Presto phase 1 entirely and becomes a standard open-payment system with the extra features (which the MTO spent $250M implementing) removed. Presto in its current form is more expensive because the physical media does more than is necessary.

If we are building a straight open payment based system then it should still be an open-tender with a special interchange layer built to speak to legacy Presto systems. Note, this interchange layer exists anyway since Presto is not a single backend but multiple independent installations which speak to eachother.

If the TTCs Presto installation costs a single dime more than Vancouvers open-payment system, it is a direct waste of tax-payer and riders money with zero benefit except political.

 

[Mapleson]

Maybe Brampton and Mississauga?

I get all the B cities in Ontario, Burlington, Brampton, and Bradford, mixed up on a regular basis still.

If the TTCs Presto installation costs a single dime more than Vancouvers open-payment system, it is a direct waste of tax-payer and riders money with zero benefit except political.

It doesn't matter that TTCs Presto installation will have many fare-reader terminals, stations, and mobile equipment to work on? It doesn't matter that TTCs contract with the Union for maintenance limits third-party installations?

The main reason the TTC wasn't on board with this from the get-go is because of their capital budget shortfall. If it's not funded, it's not going to get built; that's the reality in Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

I get all the B cities in Ontario, Burlington, Brampton, and Bradford, mixed up on a regular basis still.

Not to mention Brantford! LOL

Belleville and Brockville always used to get me ...

 

[BMO]

I've yet to figure out how Presto phase 2 can reduce the cost unless it eliminates Presto phase 1 entirely and becomes a standard open-payment system with the extra features (which the MTO spent $250M implementing) removed. Presto in its current form is more expensive because the physical media does more than is necessary.

If we are building a straight open payment based system then it should still be an open-tender with a special interchange layer built to speak to legacy Presto systems. Note, this interchange layer exists anyway since Presto is not a single backend but multiple independent installations which speak to eachother.

If the TTCs Presto installation costs a single dime more than Vancouvers open-payment system, it is a direct waste of tax-payer and riders money with zero benefit except political.

I think overall with the same system throughout the entire GTA it allows Metrolinx to find efficiencies through the same payment system, and adjust pricing based on ridership etc. With a different system on the TTC I would imagine it would be fairly difficult to electronically control both different systems together, I.e. if it's ALL Presto then Metrolinx can just adjust the pricing electronically from their office.

 

[BMO]

Not to mention Brantford! LOL

THIS!...for the longest time I used to think Brantford and Bradford were one and the same. I just thought it was a different pronunciation lol

 

[rbt]

It doesn't matter that TTCs Presto installation will have many fare-reader terminals, stations, and mobile equipment to work on? It doesn't matter that TTCs contract with the Union for maintenance limits third-party installations?

No, it doesn't. There is nothing that the TTC requires which the Greater Vancouver Area does not. They have just as many stations, they have roaming fare inspectors, and they have nearly as many mobile vehicles.

The entire transit system for the Greater Vancouver Area isn't all that different from the TTC. In fact, the Vancouver ferry terminal may have a higher peak transaction rate than TTCs busiest stations like King. Yonge/Bloor has few people going through fare gates (entering or leaving).

Capital was a concern but the Open Payment tender fell under the operations budget and required a lower bid to build/operate than the current fare system. I can only assume this tender complied with TTCs current union agreements as we do not have access to either their union agreement or the details of the bids. If I could, I would directly compare Presto costs to these bids.

We do know that Accenture did not bid on that contract and that they were not excluded from doing so.