Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[kEiThZ]

The TTC has to evolve and use POP, like every other modern transit system in the world. What's there now is ridiculous. And won't be sustainable when new streetcars and LRVs come along.

And I fully agree with implementing Presto. Yes, it sucks that we're not using open payment. But that's not the TTC's fault. That's the fault of the province. The responsible thing to do for the mayor, is to implement PRESTO so that there is full compatibilty and interoperability with other transit systems.

 

[rbt]

And I fully agree with implementing Presto. Yes, it sucks that we're not using open payment. But that's not the TTC's fault. That's the fault of the province. The responsible thing to do for the mayor, is to implement PRESTO so that there is full compatibilty and interoperability with other transit systems.

The responsible thing to do (from a dollars in your tax-payer pocket perspective) is to dump PRESTO and retender for a GTA wide Open Payment based card from scratch. The politically feasible thing to do is to have the TTC use PRESTO then convert PRESTO to being open-payment based (total cost $1B for a ~$200M item).

 

[DavidH]

The responsible thing to do (from a dollars in your tax-payer pocket perspective) is to dump PRESTO and retender for a GTA wide Open Payment based card from scratch. The politically feasible thing to do is to have the TTC use PRESTO then convert PRESTO to being open-payment based (total cost $1B for a ~$200M item).

From a dollars in your pocket perspective, you prefer to dump Presto - including whatever cancellation fees would be owed to Accenture for ongoing services - and start over? How would that be financially responsible?

Presto next generation (yes, they call it that) is intended to support open payments.

 

[rbt]

From a dollars in your pocket perspective, you prefer to dump Presto - including whatever cancellation fees would be owed to Accenture for ongoing services - and start over? How would that be financially responsible?

Yes. I believe, based on what GO Transit is paying, what TTC expects to pay, and what Vancouver and Salt Lake City have paid, that this would be by far the cheapest option both immediately (next 3 years) and long-term (next 20 years).

Presto next generation (yes, they call it that) is intended to support open payments.

Yes, at great expense (substantial contract adjustment). PRESTO, by the time is it implemented across GTA including TTC, plus Ottawa will be in the $1.5B to $2B range.

I'm very confident we could have an off-the-shelf open payment based system fully implemented on all of the agencies that signed on to PRESTO plus TTC by 2013 for a fraction (1/3rd) of the price of what PRESTO still requires for completion (Ottawa, TTC, open payment, fixing all of the usability issues, etc.).

This doesn't include the fact that Accenture's maintenance agreement will be up for renewal on damn near the same day TTC finishes an implementation. Accenture has all of the expertise on PRESTO and we (Metrolinx) has none. It would take years to bring another contractor up to speed. That means we either renew with Accenture at Accenture's price or abandon PRESTO in favour of a different "pluggable" system where you could replace the company doing the maintenance.

Of course, as I said, it is politically infeasible to do this. If this was a private business venture and I was the CEO, PRESTO would be eliminated at the earliest opportunity due primarily to known future costs and the risk a single source vendor gives.

At very least, I would bring in a shadow contractor so there are two potential organizations that could take it over.

In the mean time, I keep waiting for the press to do a freedom of information request on the Open Payment tender results the TTC made.

 

[reaperexpress]

The TTC has to evolve and use POP, like every other modern transit system in the world. What's there now is ridiculous. And won't be sustainable when new streetcars and LRVs come along.

I disagree. First of all, most great transit systems uses Pay As You Enter, just like the TTC. You might want to look up the fare systems in cities such as London , New York and Hong Kong. The systems that tend to use Proof of Payment are those with low ridership, such as the Los Angeles Metro.

The current fare system is highly sustainable, even when streetcars start using POP. All we need to do is move the streetcar platforms outside the fare-paid zone at Dundas West, Main Street, Spadina, Union and Broadview. Having to go through the turnstiles might be a hassle now due to lineups, but as more types of proof of payment become machine-readable, it won't be a hassle at all: simply take out your proof of payment, stick it in (transfers/tickets) or tap it against (Presto) the turnstile, and walk through. In London, huge crowds of people flow through the fare gates without there being lineups. Pay as you enter is more profitable due to lower staff requirements (once all payment is machine-readable) as well as lower fare evasion rates. How could a fare inspector manage to check fares at rush hour? You can barely move around enough to get off at your stop, let alone check everyone's fare. Fare gates have the added benefit of discriminating against those with no respect. Taking Viva Blue, it is easy to spot those who haven't paid, because they let the 99 Yonge pass by, even when it's a long wait for Viva Blue. These people tend to be the ones who act like they own the bus, putting their feet on the seats and swearing a lot.

It also reduces the number of homeless people in the subway, which is a plus for some people.

With all this talk of Presto, people are forgetting about the other forms of payment. Presto does not solve everything, it just makes payment a bit easier for those who use it. Presto will most likely be used mainly by people previously using Metropasses or Tokens, so Transfers, day passes and tickets are not going away. If we want to have a more efficient fare system (no huge lineups at ticket collector booths) we need to make them machine readable. Even though London has the Oyster card, all its fare gates read travelcards because it is not cost effective to make people buy Oyster cards just for a single ride.

 

[Jonny5]

The current fare system is highly sustainable, even when streetcars start using POP. All we need to do is move the streetcar platforms outside the fare-paid zone at Dundas West, Main Street, Spadina, Union and Broadview.

And Bathurst, St.Clair and St. Clair West. I don't think gating streetcar routes from the rest of the network and necessitating instalation of new fare media readers across the entire network is proof the current system is sustainable. It's a total replacement of the current system. And not a cheap one either.

 

[reaperexpress]

And Bathurst, St.Clair and St. Clair West. I don't think gating streetcar routes from the rest of the network and necessitating instalation of new fare media readers across the entire network is proof the current system is sustainable. It's a total replacement of the current system. And not a cheap one either.

Oh yeah, I forgot those stations. "Gating" streetcar platforms is not a big deal from any point of view. It costs very little, and doesn't inconvenience riders, unless they have difficulty getting things out of their pocket.

You are lumping together the two different issues. One is deciding between POP and PAYE, and the other is making fare media machine-readable. To continue using PAYE on the subway when streetcars go POP, all we need to do is move the fare gates in those stations. That is feasible.

Making more media machine readable would be a great improvement, but it's not strictly necessary for anything in particular. I just think now would be a good time to do it since we're revamping the fare system for Presto anyway.

Sustainablity is the capacity to endure. Electronic PAYE has a lower operational cost than POP, so it will be better in the long run, and is therefore more sustainable. Also, keep in mind that the TTC has a much easier time getting capital funding from the government than operational funding.

 

[DKsan]

It's been there for at least a week or two now, but the Bramalea City Centre Terminal has a working Presto balance checker (it's working because I tapped mine against it).

Also: http://www.brampton.ca/en/residents/transit/Fares/Pages/PRESTO.aspx
Presto is available on Brampton Transit starting May 30.

 

[TOareaFan]

Here are some roll out dates
Hamilton HRS May 2
Mount Joy May 4
Markham May 6
Unionville May 11
Milliken May 13
Niagara Falls May 18
St Catharines May 18
Brampton Week of May 23
GO buses summer 2011
Ottawa Spring 2012
MT, Brampton and YRT still delay on fare intergation between system and other issues. Still Spring 2011
and bringing up the rear, TTC date is unknown, but will not be 2012

Any new news on the Brampton station going live....the week of the 23rd has come and gone and still not live and with Brampton Transit going live on the 30th it would seem that the GO Station attached to their main bus terminal should be live at the same time...no?

 

[Justin10000]

Personalized fare cards:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/design-your-own-ticket.html

 

[BMO]

that's kinda a cool.....screw it let's jsut get absolutely all the services we need on one single card.

so health, transit, dirver's license, etc all on one card

 

[UrbanPrincess]

I used my card today on Brampton Transit and it worked flawlessly. I got a free card holder too!

I had a negative balance on my card and wanted to top up. It took a while for the attendants at Bramalea Terminal to figure out what to do as the software is new to them, but they got it without a problem. A bit more training and it will great!

 

[Swarley]

Does anyone know the reason for having to tap on within 7 days for any load or reload to work? For someone that doesn't use GO on a regular basis this is super frustrating as I don't always know ahead of time when I'll be using it.

 

[nfitz]

Does anyone know the reason for having to tap on within 7 days for any load or reload to work? For someone that doesn't use GO on a regular basis this is super frustrating as I don't always know ahead of time when I'll be using it.

Because it's designed by bureaucrats and consultants who probably have never used transit in their lives, who are used to making the world bend to their rules, rather than trying to make a system that reflects how people would actually use it.

I think the best thing to do is set up an autoreload - and then you never have to worry.

 

[TOareaFan]

Because it's designed by bureaucrats and consultants who probably have never used transit in their lives, who are used to making the world bend to their rules, rather than trying to make a system that reflects how people would actually use it.

I think the best thing to do is set up an autoreload - and then you never have to worry.

Except if, as I did, you think "I will set up an auto-reload long before I need to so that when they finally introduce the system at my station I will be ready."

You see no where in the setting up the auto reload system (well, back then...perhaps they fixed it now I don't know) does it tell you that after you do the stuff on-line you have to go to a checker machine and touch your card...AND that this has to be done no sooner than 24 hours after setting up an auto reload but no later than 7 days after doing so.

If you miss that window (as I did because I was just getting ready.....and could not actually use it) your auto-reload status "freezes"....you can't make any amendments to the auto-reload online....you can't cancel that auto-reload online....really, you have disabled the auto-reload function until such time as you call Presto have them "unfreeze" it and start the "no sooner than 24 hours after setting up an auto reload but no later than 7 days" process again.

I think Presto is a decent system that will have wide positive influences on transit adoption/use.....I just think that anyone involved in the roll-out should either be fired or (as I have said before) be forced to spend a week with the people who invented the Tim Card and try to understand how simple dollar loading to a card really can be.