picard102
Senior Member
Seems odd to me that two systems so similar, in all but software essentialy, are not able to interoperate.
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nfitz
Superstar
What has Presto's failure got to do with inept TTC? The program has been completely bungled ... if you want to look anywhere to the Ministry of Transportation staff who have taken 7 years to get this to the point where it's outdated, and still not working properly.
Jeffery Young is the project director. Surely we should be asking questions of those who are responsible for the current bungled program.
nfitz
Superstar
Why would this be a concern? Most people pull out their wallet to get their card boarding transit. And why not, we live in the city with one of the lowest crime rates in the country; in a country with one of the lowest crime rates in the continent!
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I think we've hit the nail on the head. You think there's Toronto, and then the GTA.
Newsflash - it's not "some other GTA region," it's ONE BIG REGION intended to be on ONE FARE SYSTEM.
Why is that confusing TTC-lovers? Toronto might be the centre of the universe, but it's not the whole thing.
Check your grammar and tenses - the province says they are INTEGRATING but you say nothing is INTEGRATED.
Could that be - and I'm just throwing this out for discussion - because the province is still INTEGRATING?
You're right, it's not done yet. No one said it's done. And as long as the TTC keeps trying to throw its weight around and overruling Metrolinx, it won't get done any time soon. So far, theyr'e not behind the schedule they set, especially with Presto's full rollout over a year away.
Oh, and one flaw with the credit card thing? Not everyone has one.
Kids don't have them and those poor people Dave Miller wants to help in Malvern might not either.
Or maybe someone having trouble with his credit cards doesn't want to put something else on them?
But I'm sure you're right - Visa and Mastercard will be only too happy to fight over who gets to make sure all those people have a card they can use.
I said it before and I'll say it again - this has nothing to do with making things easier for riders or using the best technology. You praise TTC for waiting seven years to which I said, let's wait another seven and the tech will be even better. It's amusing how you turn the TTC's ancient token system into some sort of praiseworthy attribute. Sure, sure - New York has had Metrocard for over a decade but that's only because they're not as clever as TTC! They should have waited until the very best technology was available. Riddiculous.
The TTC has revelled in operating in the Stone Age and if they'd been given the ongoing funding they should have, I shudder to think what they'd have done with it. This is 100% about TTC and Ontario/Metrolinx squaring off and since the province holds several hundred million of TTC's cards, I don't like the outgoing chair's odds of pulling this off.
Jonny5
Senior Member
In other news... we better hope no one still has to use that old fashioned cash payment system on PRESTO vehicles. I have ridden on several PRESTO buses now and the transfer printing process for these machines is terrible. I timed it at 5 seconds to print one. It's like they equipped them with a dot matrix printer. If you pull on the transfer as it's printing, even slightly, the printer shuts down and the operator has to open the machine and try to realign the paper, print out a test receipt and close it up again.
rbt
Senior Member
It does seem unfortunte the TTC has not yet installed 2500 of these things on buses, streetcars, and in the subway. Damn TTC for not having PRESTO yet.
Yes, this is sarcasm and I look forward to the open payment system being implemented. PRESTO should have a provincial level inquiry.
Justin10000
Banned
Riders will also be able to use cellphones to pay their fares. Nearly everyone has a cellphone.
Those poor people in Malvern might not be too happy to shell out a $16 initial payment for a fare card. The options for reloading are pretty limited too. If asked, I am certain those poor Malvernites would prefer the easier payment method, which is pay by cellphone, or with tickets and tokens.
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Komiksulo
Active Member
Are these the cellphones with Near-Field Communications chips? AFAIK they're only on an experimental basis in North America. I'm not sure whether such a chip can be retrofitted to existing phones.
rbt
Senior Member
The additional cost is minimal. It would take less than a year for all cell phones sold in North America to have this feature if New York, Toronto, Chicago, and LA adapt Open Payment technology for their transit systems. Within 4 years (all the 3 year contracts expire), well over 80% of phones carried by North Americans would have the feature. That's a pretty damn short timeframe for a new payment system to be deployed over a continent. Chipping physical cards has taken longer than this.
The frequent turn-over of cell phones will also allow for painless system upgrades too.
Allowing small purchases to be made without a signature or pin was actually the tricky part. Enabling the retailer to defer and group transactions to reduce their per transaction cost is the icing that makes it work. Oddly enough, the physical implementation is the easy part.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
I hope these questions don't come out wrong or are misinterpreted......
1. Just because cell phone turnover might allow all phones to be replaced in a +/4 year span.....willl they? Does everyone trade in their phone after 3 years? (in this question "everyone" = "large majority")
2. How is the revenue sharing done/proposed in these systems....what financial incentive is there for the cell phone makers/carriers to offer this feature....without one they may balk at the cost of producing those new phones.
3. This is the one I feel dumb about asking......from what I understand, payment in these systems is processed when you get on, say, a streetcar and your payment enabled device or card is near the terminal......what prevents multiple payment enabled devices from all paying at the same time.......so, I carry my b'berry and my wallet (which typically has 3 credit cards and a bank card in it).....how do I not pay 5 times?
picard102
Senior Member
They can via a sticker applied to the outside of the phone.
rbt
Senior Member
Excellent questions.
It is my understanding that a large percentage of those under 40 do indeed replace or upgrade their phone regularly.
Primarily the same reason that nearly every phone has at least a crappy camera in it. There are certain marketing features that the retailers require to sell the phone. Will you buy the $99.00 phone with the payment capacity or the $98.75 phone which doesn't have it?
Or, will you sign the 2 year agreement with Rogers (free phone!) for the phone with the payment capacity or the 2 year agreement with Telus and get the free phone which doesn't have it. If a large portion of the population (seems to be under 20%) will not purchase an item without feature X, then it gets added to everything due to volume cost.
Smart-phones will start first, of course, and technology will get pushed down just as clock, camera, calendar, address book, and other functionality has.
Actually, this is by far the best question. I have absolutely no idea what would happen if you tapped a wallet full of smart devices. I'm hoping that the wallet will dissappear like the wristwatch. Multiple cards may be copied to the phone, so they probably will be. After loading it onto the phone you leave the physical credit card at home in the firebox (next to that now antique watch).
Nokia phones with the ability to load multiple cards onto generally require you to select a card first or will broadcast the previously selected default.
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Blovertis
Active Member
Before you tech-heads get too starry-eyed, bear in mind that Canada has cell phone penetration of 65%, a rate that is likely lower among senior citizens, who happen to be prime users of the TTC.
Dan416
Senior Member
And don't forget the population is quickly aging.
nfitz
Superstar
What's the credit-card penetration rate? What's the double penetration rate of cellphones and credit cards? It's hard to imagine an older person without a credit card, or a younger person without a cell phone.
Given they are also going to support PRESTO, I just don't see this is an issue.