Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

Not sure the big deal here. Even if the TTC is forced to implement it (and Giambrone IS saying, again and again it will be implemented), then surely the big issue is where to find the extra hundreds of $millions to fund it.

TTC already cancelled hundreds of $millions of projects in order to cover the federal portion of the new streetcar order. It's hard to think there's much more that can be cut in the capital budget.

So another source of revenue is required. If they tender this properly, and require the winner (Visa or Mastercard presumably) to make sure that PRESTO is enabled with the install, then they could likely achieve PRESTO implementation along with open fare at less cost than the current $479 million estimate. Perhaps even less that the $140 million that the province has agreed to fund. Heck ... perhaps they could even get one of the 2 companies to pay the TTC for the opportunity to install open fare and PRESTO.

Until the tender results come back, I'd keep an open mind on this.

On other topics ... apparently Islington and Kipling TTC stations will have PRESTO functional next week.

 

[CDL.TO]

Giambrone today estimated that PRESTO implementation would cost $479 million

The cost estimate has grown over time (from Steve Munro):

- November 2000: $140-million
- March 2004: $140-million
- June 2007: $260-million
- 2010 Capital Budget: $416-million
- July 2010: $479-million

Watch the costs spiral out of control before you very eyes! Even before a single thing is even done!

 

[nfitz]

Exactly the reason that TTC should run away from this disaster.

What's interesting to note in this sudden unexpected battle between Ontario and TTC, is that the Ontario government is not disputing TTC's cost estimate. I'd have thought they would have simply come out and said TTC was padding the numbers ... but they aren't saying that.

Which in itself raises some interesting questions on why the Ontario government selected such an expensive system.

TTC and Toronto councillors need to protect Toronto taxpayers from yet another excessive Provincial project that is financially out of control.

I must declare a conflict of interest though ... I am a Toronto and Ontario taxpayer ...

 

[waterloowarrior]

Presto does not and is not proposed to do any kind of fare integration. It is strictly a payment mechanism.

Presto is proposed to be used as a tool for fare integration across the GTHA
http://www.metrolinx.com/thebigmove/strategies/strategy6.html

 

[nfitz]

Presto is proposed to be used as a tool for fare integration across the GTHA
http://www.metrolinx.com/thebigmove/strategies/strategy6.html

If there was fare integration, I'm sure it would be a tool that would be used - in the same manner the current weekly pass is a tool that is used.

But if there is no progress with fare integration, then it remains strictly a payment mechanism.

 

[DavidH]

I've never seen a City of Toronto budget that shows the city paying for 1/3 of implementation costs. The city created the details of Transit City after they got tipped off by the government that the MoveOntario 2020 announcement was coming. It was never based on the city paying 1/3 of construction.

Is there proof that you have that Transit City was created with the expectation of full provincial funding? Point me to a URL, please.

Why are you making this stuff up? Are you a shill?

Hardly. The City has cried poor for so many years with the expectation of a provincial bailout (frequently granted) that it is hard to see it as anything other than another political ploy. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for Giambrone's position at the moment, particularly considering the smear campaign he is currently running.

One last comment here: none of what is happening right now can be fully understood without taking into account that Giambrone will be out of office in several months.

 

[nfitz]

Is there proof that you have that Transit City was created with the expectation of full provincial funding? Point me to a URL, please.

Proof ... no. But that's the rumour I've heard. Though just look at the timeline ...

The City of Toronto announced Transit City on March 17, 2007. MoveOntario 2020 was announced on June 15, 2007 including all of the Transit City lines - with the assumption that the cost be covered 2/3 by the province and 1/3 by the federal government. These things don't come out of nowwhere, and City of Toronto and Government of Ontario were in communication. It's hard to believe that Miller wasn't aware of what was coming. But actual proof ... no.

Hardly. The City has cried poor for so many years with the expectation of a provincial bailout (frequently granted) that it is hard to see it as anything other than another political ploy. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for Giambrone's position at the moment, particularly considering the smear campaign he is currently running.

Smear campaign? All he did was answer a couple of questions about something that was released in public TTC documents back in May. Every time he has spoken, and every document I've seen has stressed continued support for a GTA farecard; the document in question says "The approach to open payments outlined in this report does not change the Commission direction regarding PRESTO that was approved at the November, 2009 Commission meeting."

The current cost of implementing PRESTO has been estimated to be $490 million, of which the Ontario government is only funding less than $47 million. The city would be responsible for almost $400 million. That's a huge amount of money!

If piggy-backing open fare on this, and reducing the city's cost by one or two hundred million, then we'd be fools not to take is.

Who could complain, both PRESTO and open fare implemented for less money than just implementing PRESTO. Well, the only complaint may be from Accenture, who'd lose their monopoly on TTC fares ... but that's nothing to do with the City of Toronto, who are footing most of the cost. It seems to me that the Province of Ontario sold something to Accenture that it wasn't in a position to sell!

One last comment here: none of what is happening right now can be fully understood without taking into account that Giambrone will be out of office in several months.

Do you want to expand on this? I'm sure he's quite happy to screw the McGuinty government, especially if he saves the city money at the same time. After all, look at how badly the McGuinty government screwed the TTC over Transit City funding ... breaking promise after promise ... only months after the promised were made. Heck, I'd like to personally screw McGuinty after the forked-tongue crap he's pulled with TTC between the removal of promised funding, and the elimination of funding for TTC operations. I haven't lived under such a blatant liar of a Premier since Bourassa.

 

[EnviroTO]

TTC was perfectly content to keep paying people ridiculous salaries to hand out stupid little tokens no matter what every other transit system on earth was doing. This move has nothing to do with helping riders or supporting new technology - I don't see anything other than it being about a pissing contest with the province.

Getting rid of tokens will require the replacement of every turnstile on the system. Change is expensive so it makes sense to change when there is a system which seems a little more future proof. If the TTC had jumped on Dexit seven years ago they would have adopted something without staying power. Now that VISA, Mastercard, and AMEX are standardizing and have a smaller payment without signature or PIN entry solution there is a solution that makes sense.

Since Metrolinx came on board they've effectively been told they're a piece of a bigger puzzle (albeit the biggest, most important piece) and they don't like that. They like to pretend they exist in a bubble. They want the province's money (and rightly so) but they don't want to do the province's bidding. It's ridiculous, IMHO, to tie this into the recent funding delays - TTC objected to Presto from Day One not because they were waiting for open technology but because they didn't want something imposed on them.

No, they were against it because there was a huge expense with no business case. It will be an expense without reducing long term costs. With open pay you get rid of the need to accept money because cards are tied to credit and bank accounts. With some other form of fare you still need to get money onto the card with either a bank account or a credit card. Presto is an additional intermediary step with a whole new call centre and support staff to employ.

This is all about power and anyone who thinks it's about riders or technology or the injustice of transit funding is, I think, fooling themselves. It's not like they made the announcement and had the head of York Region Transit saying they're ditching Presto to go with TTC's superior system.

Who cares what some other GTA region is doing? What are their cost recovery ratios? What are their modal splits? Every transit system in the GTA except GO takes cash fare. Why isn't GO following the established common fare mechanism?

Presto is a middle man between a bank and a transit company that doesn't need to be there. Presto is a make work project which requires a whole new IT department, call centre, and support staff and is an advertisement for integrated transit where none truly exists.

Presto cards only contain a unique ID... they don't contain money or passes. The money and passes are stored on a central server and this is why Presto readers on buses can't tell if you are going to go into a negative balance. Newsflash... credit cards and debit cards contain unique IDs. Why does Presto need to put a new card in my wallet? Why do I need to take money off my credit card, put it onto a Presto card, and then tap it to take the bus? It makes no sense. I check into my flight at Pearson using my credit card and I'm not paying anything. I register any credit card on a website and I get points for dining at certain restaurants automatically. Why can't I use the same card to go on a bus? The reason is that the province is advertising they are integrating transit in the GTA when in truth nothing has been integrated at all. All the transit agencies are still run independently, fares are set independently, route planning is done independently, etc.

 

[Dan416]

Why am I not surprised that it's the LRTistas that are leaping to the TTC's defense on starting a new open payment system when we already have Presto? There's gotta be a reason behind that. Oh yes, because LRTistas are not logical and consider the TTC infallible. Especially Giambrone et al.

 

[nfitz]

Why am I not surprised that it's the LRTistas that are leaping to the TTC's defense on starting a new open payment system when we already have Presto? There's gotta be a reason behind that. Oh yes, because LRTistas are not logical and consider the TTC infallible. Especially Giambrone et al.

Maybe it's that the same ones who support cheaper and practical solutions such as LRT instead of building expensive subways through low-density areas, also support cheaper and practical solutions such as open payment, rather than expensive solutions such as Presto.

Perhaps it's simply that those opposed to open payment and LRT simply have no sense of the value of money.

 

[Dan416]

Maybe it's that the same ones who support cheaper and practical solutions such as LRT instead of building expensive subways through low-density areas, also support cheaper and practical solutions such as open payment, rather than expensive solutions such as Presto.

Perhaps it's simply that those opposed to open payment and LRT simply have no sense of the value of money.

I don't think this has anything to do with value for money, considering the value for money on SELRT and/or Scarborough RT doesn't make any sense. Nor does implementing a new, different fare payment method for the TTC when the province has already come up with one for all transit systems in the GTA.

No, the common denominator here is the inept TTC. Basically every decision they make these days needs to be questioned and taken with a bucket of salt.

Oh and when I say the TTC, it's probably more apt to say the leadership of the TTC is inept, i.e. Adam Giambrone. He is a real jackass. First cheating on the girlfriend. And now the anti-Presto tweets. What level will he stoop to next? This guy doesn't just have poor judgement. He has none!

 

[lead82]

It is the subwayistas that like to ware money re-inventing the wheel and spending almost half a billion dollars on a fare card that is a proprietary technology and requires a whole separate infrastructure to support and build the presto refill stations. My prediction is that if Ontario insists that the TTC implement Presto, it will only be done at the handful of stations that the province has funded. The rest if the implementation will be done over a period of 20 years. I would much rather have the private sector build us an open payment system or better yet, leap frog this and let us pay with mobile phones like they do in Sweden or like Air Canada does with the electronic boarding pass. Purchase fare online or on your phone, receive SMS with your ticket or pass with 2d barcode, then scan barcode as you enter bus or subway station. Presto is a technology we should have adopted in the 90s with the rest if the world. Now instead of leap-frogging we are still coming in with something a technology that is at least 10-15 years old.

 

[Dan416]

But at least this proprietary technology exists and is currently in use in the province. Where is open payment actually in use, besides testing?

You can tell from Giambrone's tweets that they're being obstructionist, and the province is seeing right through it.

 

[lead82]

Open payment is in use Everywhere! Go to any Timmies or Starbucks or your local has station. They all now have the visa/mc tap and go scanners as an option of payment. All the TTC would need is to get a sponsor such as a bank to pay for installing those readers and voilà, the payment system is done. Visa and MC will take care if all the rest. While I personally don't like Giambrone, the open payment system is the way to go if the TTC can get it essentially for free or at a very cheap cost. If it is made to also support Presto then all the better. I say let them submit the RFP and see what happens.

 

[Dan416]

Assuming people want to whip out their credit cards for public transit