Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[DavidH]

One the issue of the TTC, If the province is adamant the TTC implement PRESTO, why not just pay for the entire installation? If the TTC has to pay 2/3rd funding., and the open payment turns out to be the cheaper option, why should the TTC commit to the more expensive option? The province can end this posturing and just pay for the entire installation.

Toronto has the financial tools to pay for PRESTO if they choose to. Keep in mind that doing so means that the City gets about $1B of transit expansion dollars that are tied to PRESTO. The cost of NOT implementing PRESTO is quite high.

 

[rbt]

Toronto has the financial tools to pay for PRESTO if they choose to. Keep in mind that doing so means that the City gets about $1B of transit expansion dollars that are tied to PRESTO. The cost of NOT implementing PRESTO is quite high.

The requirement is that PRESTO be implemented on transit city lines. Funds for those lines happen to be large enough to include PRESTO implementation for them.

Anyway, a good chunk of the cost is purchasing/installing reader equipment, and implementing the network. It is entirely possible that installing both systems costs roughly the same as installing just PRESTO.

It is also possible that Visa or Mastercard will pickup a large portion of those costs for being the exclusive non-presto payment processor.

Given both of those possibilities, I think an RFP (which costs less than a few thousand in employee time) is worth while doing.

 

[nfitz]

Toronto has the financial tools to pay for PRESTO if they choose to.

But why should they, if it's more expensive and not as flexible as some kind of open system. Heck, if you let Visa and Mastercard bid on it for exclusivity, you might even be able build the system for free ... and toss PRESTO support in as well. How much is "Toronto only takes Visa" worth to Visa? How much extra market share would they get if most regular TTC riders switched to Visa?

Keep in mind that doing so means that the City gets about $1B of transit expansion dollars that are tied to PRESTO. The cost of NOT implementing PRESTO is quite high.

Only on paper ... if 5 years down the road the Ontario government sill won't pay for PRESTO implementation, and open payment is working very well, then would they turn around and ask Toronto to refund $billions of dollars to the province? No, more than likely, they'd just make a deal as part of another funding deal. Such promises have been broken many times in the past..

The question is, why should TTC push ahead with an antiquated and poorly designed system? Why isn't MTO also pushing open payment? Why is the tail trying to wag the dog.

Clearly, TTC's fare payment system is much bigger, and much more important that whatever GO and the rest of the transit agencies do. Presumably they will all follow TTCs lead, eventually.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The paradox is that the longer the TTC stalled on joining everyone else, the greater the likelihood there would be new technology. It seems awfully hypocritical for TTC to have stalled implementation at every turn (not that it's been quick to begin with) and then to criticize it as old tech.

I don't so much disagree that an open system would be ideal, but it's not ideal when the entire goal of Presto is to have the entire GTA on the same system for once. And here's TTC messing it all up. So, if the province gives up on Presto because TTC didn't play ball, who is the tail and who is the dog?

Sorry if this was already mentioned - and correct me if I'm wrong - but beyond the provincial funding FOR Presto, isn't there also an issue with them cutting off gas-tax funding for anyone who doesn't use Presto?

I understand that promises can be broken, new deals reached etc. but there must be some Metrolinx/provincial bureaucrats who have been driven insane by TTC dithering, made apoplectic by this announcement and who are thus not willing to start bargaining at this point...

 

[Blovertis]

...but it's not ideal when the entire goal of Presto is to have the entire GTA on the same system for once.

Here you've hit the nail on the head. The TTC doesn't object to Presto because it's "old technology" but because integration represents a threat to its power.

For the TTC to portray itself as interested in cutting edge technology at this point is laughable.

 

[nfitz]

but there must be some Metrolinx/provincial bureaucrats who have been driven insane by TTC dithering, made apoplectic by this announcement and who are thus not willing to start bargaining at this point...

I'm not sure why you mention TTC dithering. The government went ahead with PRESTO, on the assumption that TTC would foot most of the bill, and at the same time cut both eliminated annual operating funds for the TTC and delayed already funded transit projects by 5 years.

Asking the taxpayers of Toronto to foot the bill for a system whose primary benefit beyond what an open payment system can do, is provide regional connectivity that primarily benefits non-Toronto residents is an insult to those of us footing the bill.

The TTC's primary job is to provide transit for Torontonians; open payment will do this effectively and a lot cheaper than PRESTO. If the government wants more they can pay the bill.

 

[Dan416]

This fiasco is just another reason to dismantle the TTC.

 

[nfitz]

This fiasco is just another reason to dismantle the TTC.

Why would the MTO taking 7 years to get PRESTO rolling, and then coming out with a product that has so many problems, and is so old-fashioned, expensive, TTC's fault? TTC has been expressing concern about PRESTO for years; clearly MTO has not been taking TTC's concerns seriously.

If TTC can roll out an open-payment system in a much shorter time-frame and a much cheaper cost than what they would have to pay to finish PRESTO implementation, then shouldn't we be dismantling Metrolinx? Perhaps making it part of TTC.

 

[DavidH]

I'm not sure why you mention TTC dithering. The government went ahead with PRESTO, on the assumption that TTC would foot most of the bill, and at the same time cut both eliminated annual operating funds for the TTC and delayed already funded transit projects by 5 years..

And yet the City HAD been planning on paying for 1/3 of Transit City costs, and is now being asked to pay none. Surely this covers some of the PRESTO implementation costs?

 

[Blovertis]

Why would the MTO taking 7 years to get PRESTO rolling, and then coming out with a product that has so many problems, and is so old-fashioned, expensive, TTC's fault? TTC has been expressing concern about PRESTO for years; clearly MTO has not been taking TTC's concerns seriously.

If TTC can roll out an open-payment system in a much shorter time-frame and a much cheaper cost than what they would have to pay to finish PRESTO implementation, then shouldn't we be dismantling Metrolinx? Perhaps making it part of TTC.

The TTC could have implemented an electronic payment system years ago, as other systems have done. It is now engaged in a rearguard action to protect its turf and deflect attention from its foot-dragging over the past decade.

 

[rbt]

Here you've hit the nail on the head. The TTC doesn't object to Presto because it's "old technology" but because integration represents a threat to its power.

Presto does not and is not proposed to do any kind of fare integration. It is strictly a payment mechanism.

A double payment is and will still required when moving between systems unless those systems already have an agreement in place.

 

[nfitz]

And yet the City HAD been planning on paying for 1/3 of Transit City costs, and is now being asked to pay none. Surely this covers some of the PRESTO implementation costs?

I've never seen a City of Toronto budget that shows the city paying for 1/3 of implementation costs. The city created the details of Transit City after they got tipped off by the government that the MoveOntario 2020 announcement was coming. It was never based on the city paying 1/3 of construction.

Why are you making this stuff up? Are you a shill?

 

[nfitz]

The TTC could have implemented an electronic payment system years ago, as other systems have done. It is now engaged in a rearguard action to protect its turf and deflect attention from its foot-dragging over the past decade.

If it had an infinite amount of money perhaps. Giambrone today estimated that PRESTO implementation would cost $479 million and the Ontario government has only funded $140 million (less than 25%).

The TTC doesn't have an infinite amount of money, and certainly wouldn't have spent a half-billion on a fare collection system. If they had that amount of money around, they could also have extended the Sheppard Subway to Victoria Park years ago.

It's only in the last year or two that these cheaper open fare options have become available. Why do you suggest TTC should have been wasting money on implementing electronic payment?

 

[PinkLucy]

Sent from Minister Wynne's office today:

The TTC's recent focus on a duplicate fare system is troubling and a complete waste of precious taxpayer dollars.

The PRESTO card allows transit riders around the GTA to transfer seamlessly with one card from GO Train to bus or streetcar or subway, anywhere in the GTA. And best of all, the PRESTO system is also being developed to accept other cards -- like debit or credit cards.

It's a smart system that connects us and makes the daily commute just a little easier. Already 7,600 commuters are using their PRESTO cards, and 500 more are joining every week.

The city and TTC made a commitment to PRESTO many times.

Gas Tax funding was provided to GTA Municipalities, including the City of Toronto, with the requirement that they participate in the PRESTO fare card system, provincial funding towards the cost of the City of Toronto's replacement streetcars is also conditional upon the City's full participation in PRESTO and we've communicated to the City that the 182 light rail vehicles for the four Transit City projects in Toronto must be PRESTO ready.

There are a lot of investments to make in public transit, and a lot of improvements to be made at the TTC. To waste money on a duplicate fare system makes no sense.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I kind of admire nfitz's steadfast defence of TTC but I just don't see it.

TTC was perfectly content to keep paying people ridiculous salaries to hand out stupid little tokens no matter what every other transit system on earth was doing. This move has nothing to do with helping riders or supporting new technology - I don't see anything other than it being about a pissing contest with the province.

Since Metrolinx came on board they've effectively been told they're a piece of a bigger puzzle (albeit the biggest, most important piece) and they don't like that. They like to pretend they exist in a bubble. They want the province's money (and rightly so) but they don't want to do the province's bidding. It's ridiculous, IMHO, to tie this into the recent funding delays - TTC objected to Presto from Day One not because they were waiting for open technology but because they didn't want something imposed on them. They are betting, as you suggest, that they are so big and powerful that a dozen other transit systems will give up on Presto because of this. Sadly for them, the TTC and Toronto remain largely at the mercy of the province and this is not going to speed up them getting Transit City money (or, ha ha, DRL money).

nfitz points out they don't have an infinite amount of money, and yet apparently they have enough to research and implement their own fare system while a dozen other municipalities implement a different one. I guess economies of scale don't factor in?

This is all about power and anyone who thinks it's about riders or technology or the injustice of transit funding is, I think, fooling themselves. It's not like they made the announcement and had the head of York Region Transit saying they're ditching Presto to go with TTC's superior system.

And to the comment above, fare integration is a red herring except to the extent that is facilitated by having multiple transit systems on the same card. The issue is not a double fare - it's pulling out ONE card to pay those two fares.

If I'm wrong, I suggest we wait another 5 years and then see what amazing technology TTC can find. Let's just keep waiting forever until Adam Giambrone is happy, and then the other 5 million people in the GTA can get along with their lives.

OH - and if you don't think the province is pissed enough to cut TTC off at the knees when the time comes, check out the harsh wording in this just-released press release:

[SNIP - edited out since it was posted as I was typing ]

So, now they're playing a game of political chicken. Good luck.

P.S. I think you're missing what DavidH said above. Typically, the capital funding for transit has been 1/3 from each level of government so, yes, the city surely expected to pay for 1/3 of the TC costs (let's not even talk about their streetcar stimulus bluff). Move2020 was supposed to force the feds hands and it didn't work, forcing the province to effectively pay 2/3 of fewer projects.