Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

It's quickly becoming clear that the forum is becoming ever more divided between those who blindly follow the TTC on every aspect and those who don't.

I think most of us here criticize TTC on a regular basis. I've been very critical of the design of the upgrades of the Danforth station.

When the TTC has their head stuck up their ass, I'll say so.

And I don't discriminate.

The problem is, that we have a few people, that will do nothing BUT criticize the TTC, ignoring all the things that go right in a day, and how much better their service is than most other major urban systems in the continent. And these people will make all sorts of false claims, and out of context remarks to justify their glass half empty world.

 

[EnviroTO]

No, it is becoming clear there are people who have decided that anything Giambrone, Miller, or the TTC does, regardless of how asinine or intelligent, must be wrong and have ill intentions behind it. If it was the province with an open pay system and the TTC with a Presto plan there are some of us who would actually look at what the plan is and not who made it.

 

[Dan416]

No, it is becoming clear there are people who have decided that anything Giambrone, Miller, or the TTC does, regardless of how asinine or intelligent, must be wrong and have ill intentions behind it. If it was the province with an open pay system and the TTC with a Presto plan there are some of us who would actually look at what the plan is and not who made it.

I think you're confused. It's those of us who are criticizing the TTC now are the reasonable ones and don't indiscriminately criticize or praise the TTC regardless of what they're doing. We just happen to call things as they are and aren't blinded by undying devotion for the TTC no matter how obtuse they are.

 

[EnviroTO]

So please tell me which of the two options requires (a) new call centres, (b) new software development, (c) new cards distributed, (d) more steps between your paycheque and your ride, (e) is more likely available to the casual user of transit, (f) follows an industry standard, (g) allows a choice of card providers to the user, (h) more publicly employed customer service agents, etc. Please outline these benefits that you see with Presto which do not exist for a credit card or debit card. There aren't any benefits. It is so clear to someone outlining the pluses and minuses of the two options. If Presto was implemented at the time Oyster rolled out it would be a smart decision, however with RFID credit and debit I have a hard time believing the minds behind Oyster would roll out Oyster today. It offers no benefits.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Yeah, either some of us are paranoid or the rest of y'all are secretly dating Adam Giambrone. I don't hate the TTC or think it's a terrible system but I do think that some of the people who run it have tunnel vision (pun not really intended).

All those a b c's EnviroTO lists are fine and good but I'll add one:
Which one has been in the works for 5 years and which was pulled out of the TTC's ass two days ago?
If you come up with a great design for the AGO should we tear down Gehry's and build yours or is the fact that his is already built not a factor at all?

At the very least you should acknowledge that it doesn't make sense to introduce 2 systems simulatenously. So even if the TTC's plan is superior in every way, and even if the province doesn't have to pay a penalty for ditching Presto, it still means the TTC is effectively pulling rank and telling Metrolinx/MTO how to do their job. And they're largely able to do that because of how they've stalled the process to date.

Excerpting that one paragraph from James' column takes out the context of the rest of the article which is more nuanced:

Fortunately, the TTC doesn’t scare easily. Unfortunately, the TTC has been a laggard on this issue, stalling and obfuscating and putting up roadblocks.

Fortunately, the TTC has woken up just in time and the late-day conversion to new technology may even save us hundreds of millions of dollars. Unfortunately, relations are so bad between the province and the city transit provider that what fuels their deliberations can run counter to what’s best for the customer.

I don't think anyone here has straight-up said open payment is stupid and Presto rules. James proposes a sort of compromise that allows the TTC to see if it is, in fact, superior to Presto.

None of it changes the fact that this is entirely and obviously political. You'd have to be really naive to think that it's not political because Miller and Giambrone are lame ducks. The only thing better for them than sticking it to the province on the way out the door is the idea they could win and have a "legacy." It's nothing less than political chicken and, as James says, it's riders caught in the middle.

The TTC is being like your buddy who can't decide if you should go to the 7pm movie or the 9pm movie, when he really wants to go to the 10pm movie. So all day he hems and haws and haws and hems until you say, "Fine, now it's 8 pm. I guess we're going to 9 pm."

But then he can't get dressed in time and his car won't start and suddenly it's 9:30 and he says, "I have a compromise. Let's go to 10 p.m.! It will be so much better because it won't as crowded and parking will be easier."

That may all be true, but your friend is still an asshole.

 

[Jonny5]

24/07/2010 5:22PM Burlington -$2.50
24/07/2010 4:49PM Aldershot GO Station -$4.18
24/07/2010 3:15PM Union Station -$4.20

So I didn't get a co-fare discount on this trip. It has given it to me before and no, I am NOT at the 35 co-fare limit. "Burlington" is Burlinton Transit and their co-fare is 65 cents.
My guess is that there is a time limit on the transfer. The problem is some routes only run every 30 minutes or every hour on weekends connecting to the GO station.
This bus was just late. It was supposed to show at 5:09, 20 minutes after the train, but didn't show until 33 minutes after I tapped off. I bet there is a 30 minute limit. This will have to be changed.

I sent in a customer feedback form via the presto website and will post their reply.

 

[rbt]

Yeah, either some of us are paranoid or the rest of y'all are secretly dating Adam Giambrone. I don't hate the TTC or think it's a terrible system but I do think that some of the people who run it have tunnel vision (pun not really intended).

All those a b c's EnviroTO lists are fine and good but I'll add one:
Which one has been in the works for 5 years and which was pulled out of the TTC's ass two days ago?

With respect; the TTC has been following the New York and BART trials of the Open Payment system since those trials were first proposed a number of years ago.

Both New York and BART, in addition to a number of other agencies like Chicago and LA, are making steps to replace their currently existing systems with an Open Payment mechanism over various timelines.

If TTC goes with PRESTO, it will be the only one with a non-bank backed smart card in 10 years.

 

[kEiThZ]

I can see the TTC's argument on costs. It sucks that they have to pick up the full tab. And in all likelihood an open payment system could be cheaper and easier to implement and manage.

But at the same time, having one card that works across the region and even the province would be tremendously beneficial.

I am hoping that this is Miller and Giambrone's bluff to get the province to step in and offer to pay the full bill.

 

[nfitz]

24/07/2010 5:22PM Burlington -$2.50
24/07/2010 4:49PM Aldershot GO Station -$4.18
24/07/2010 3:15PM Union Station -$4.20

So I didn't get a co-fare discount on this trip. It has given it to me before and no, I am NOT at the 35 co-fare limit. "Burlington" is Burlinton Transit and their co-fare is 65 cents.
My guess is that there is a time limit on the transfer. The problem is some routes only run every 30 minutes or every hour on weekends connecting to the GO station.
This bus was just late. It was supposed to show at 5:09, 20 minutes after the train, but didn't show until 33 minutes after I tapped off. I bet there is a 30 minute limit. This will have to be changed.

I sent in a customer feedback form via the presto website and will post their reply.

Hmm ... also it's 2 hours and 7 minutes after your journey started.

Looks like you should have got it. The GO fare is correct at $8.18. Is it possible that it get's calculated correctly later on in the day or overnight? Do you have an example of one that worked?

Tell us what they say!

 

[Jonny5]

Hmm ... also it's 2 hours and 7 minutes after your journey started.

Looks like you should have got it. The GO fare is correct at $8.18. Is it possible that it get's calculated correctly later on in the day or overnight? Do you have an example of one that worked?

Tell us what they say!

The only examples I have of it working are going to the station:

13/07/2010 4:23PM Union Station -$2.33
13/07/2010 2:53PM Aldershot GO Station -$4.20
13/07/2010 2:34PM Burlington -$2.50

This trip was $1.85 less than the one from last Saturday. It's equivalent to being charged $0.65, the correct co-fare discount, instead of Burlington transit regular fare of $2.50.
In the trip above, I actually boarded this BT bus in Hamilton (Route 1) and rode to Aldershot to test the co-fares out. It worked then, but why not last Saturday?

I got an email auto-reply to my feedback form that said they would respond within 5 business days, so I will let everyone know by Friday what they say, if anything!

 

[EnviroTO]

All those a b c's EnviroTO lists are fine and good but I'll add one:
Which one has been in the works for 5 years and which was pulled out of the TTC's ass two days ago?
If you come up with a great design for the AGO should we tear down Gehry's and build yours or is the fact that his is already built not a factor at all?

TTC couldn't have proposed open payment 5 years ago because credit cards and debit cards with RFID weren't available. They did look at things like Oyster before the province made it a project and they chose not to do it. They would have beaten Presto to the punch but the business case didn't make sense to them then. It is partly because Presto has been slow to implement that the technology that makes sense to deploy has changed. Unlike the AGO which is fully funded and built, Presto isn't fully funded and far more than the majority of people who take transit in the GTA don't yet have a card nor do the vast majority of buses and stations accept it. Tokens and Metropasses are in the hands of far more people than Presto. It was stupid from the beginning to design a fare system before involving the TTC and getting them to sign a contract.

The fact a project has started is not a good enough reason to continue the project when the conditions surrounding the rationale for the project have change. You don't continue a heart surgery after the patient has been declared dead. Presto and the idea behind Dexit made sense at a time when the choices were money or credit card transactions requiring signatures with high transaction fees. Now there are lower transaction fee options with tap-n-go and the whole business case no longer makes sense. Do you continue to roll out a project which no longer makes sound business sense simply because you started? Surely cost benefit analysis should play a part in this.

 

[Mapleson]

The fact a project has started is not a good enough reason to continue the project when the conditions surrounding the rationale for the project have change. You don't continue a heart surgery after the patient has been declared dead. Presto and the idea behind Dexit made sense at a time when the choices were money or credit card transactions requiring signatures with high transaction fees. Now there are lower transaction fee options with tap-n-go and the whole business case no longer makes sense. Do you continue to roll out a project which no longer makes sound business sense simply because you started? Surely cost benefit analysis should play a part in this.

How do you get TTC and 10 other agencies to sign off on a design that's not specified? How do you specify a design with multiple levels of government and agency involvement and remain timely? Having the Presto infrastructure means you have the ability to extend to next generation techology without intrusive works, at least in theory.

Where's the cost benefit of stopping a physical works project midstream to divert into new studies? At some point, you've got to stick to the game plan and make something that somewhat works rather than keep trying to make something that works better. What's the major cost for Presto at this point? The physical works left to be done, the machines yet ordered, or redesigning the system to have individual credit card companies come in and do physical works (?) to install their own machines?

Ideally/creepily, they could set up something like RFID cards that read like the alarms at the stores, and 'conductors' on trains could scan people/their cards to see if (a) they'd gone threw a cattle grid and (b) they had a card. If not, they could issue a card and accept fare (like UK National Rail System).

There is also the fare integration side to Presto, which is more important imo. Presto without TTC doesn't really make sense because they represent probably half of all GTA transit users. Whatever technology form Presto takes, it's fare integration that'll make or break it's ability to increase convience.

 

[EnviroTO]

How do you get TTC and 10 other agencies to sign off on a design that's not specified? How do you specify a design with multiple levels of government and agency involvement and remain timely?

You don't need the sign off of those other agencies because the TTC and GO alone are the most complex. If a system can handle the TTCs requirements with buses, streetcars, turnstiles, fare gates, Metropass, Metropass Value Plan, Metropass Volume Incentive Plan, Day Pass, weekend family pass, child, adult, senior, student, etc and GO's distance based fares you can handle other transit agencies easily.

Having the Presto infrastructure means you have the ability to extend to next generation techology without intrusive works, at least in theory.

Only if the equipment can handle it. Presto says their next generation reader might be able to handle it so if they roll out the current reader they need to completely replace later thus doubling the cost. If indeed Presto's next model will handle open payment then at very least the TTC should mandate that only the Presto models supporting open payment get rolled out.

Where's the cost benefit of stopping a physical works project midstream to divert into new studies? At some point, you've got to stick to the game plan and make something that somewhat works rather than keep trying to make something that works better.

I don't believe that. If you find out that a business case is no longer valid there is no point spending the rest of the budget. You may have wasted the first amounts you paid into the project but you can still save the money not yet spent. If you are investing in stocks and the company is no longer viable you don't hold on or invest more. Know when to fold 'em.

What's the major cost for Presto at this point? The physical works left to be done, the machines yet ordered, or redesigning the system to have individual credit card companies come in and do physical works (?) to install their own machines?

Well there are thousands and thousands of machines to purchase and install (ones that currently don't support open payments so they might need to be completely ripped out and replaced in a few years). Servers and networks to beef up considerably. Support call centers to employ. In the end you have a system that instead of sharing the cost of development with businesses around the world, Ontario transit agencies are the only customer. With open payments the call centers already exist, the card distribution already exists, the costs of the servers and software development are shared amongst every retailer, etc. The province and Accenture are not payment software experts so there is a huge risk of cost overruns and system failures.

There is also the fare integration side to Presto, which is more important imo. Presto without TTC doesn't really make sense because they represent probably half of all GTA transit users. Whatever technology form Presto takes, it's fare integration that'll make or break it's ability to increase convience.

Well the GTA Weekly Pass already existed before Presto, and so does loonies and toonies which work on all systems except GO which requires you to buy a ticket. I always roll my eyes when I hear the convenience being that you don't need to carry cash (which works everywhere) when you need to carry Presto (which doesn't work anywhere other than transit). The most frequent users would probably have passes already so they probably weren't carrying cash already. Casual users aren't as likely to have a Presto card as there is little reason pay $6 to buy a card when the fares are no cheaper and you might loose your card. Only the most frequent users of Tim Hortons have Tim Hortons cards and the benefits are similar... put money on, don't need to carry cash, and it works at every Tim Hortons. The most frequent users of transit already have passes.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I understand a lot of what you're saying, EnviroTO, but it doesn't change the facts so far.

Presto is not a dead patient. It's a patient the TTC is trying to kill so it can have it's own patient rushed in to the hospital.

I'm sure you're right about many of the concerns with Presto, possible benefits of open payment etc., but I still say the timing and substance of this are all about politics. Royson James implied there could be a penalty clause for the province to bail on Presto (which would hardly be odd for a contract) so you could argue the province's stubbornness is equally political. But they hold the cards, as well as the agreement that every transit agency (including TTC) signed.

The TTC had legitimate complains about being a cash-strapped system asked to pony up a lot of money, but that doesn't change the facts for me either.

My understanding is that the open payment pilots in North America (New York in particular) have been ongoing for years. So I'm still not clear why we would ditch a program that has been rolling out for several years, and which is now in operation in several locations for a last-minute solution that may well be superior, but which remains unproven. As I said earlier, the longer everyone waits the better the technology will be but you can't keep pulling the rug out every time something better comes along.

If you did that, you'd be replacing your computer every three months and have every single movie you like on Beta, VHS, a couple of DVDs and Blu Rays. Most of us pace ourselves a little.

You seem to brush off the fare integration issue but is an absolute key plan of Metrolinx's plan and it will happen. People are not going to use open payment for TTC while paying cash for every other system. As for the $6 cost....I was in London for four days and I got an Oyster card. That's what you do. When I was done I was able to return it at the airport and get back the deposit (or I could have kept it as a souvenir). So, now you're asking people to sign up for 2 systems and there is no way Metrolinx/MTO will let that happen, and rightly so.

 

[rbt]

You seem to brush off the fare integration issue but is an absolute key plan of Metrolinx's plan and it will happen. People are not going to use open payment for TTC while paying cash for every other system. As for the $6 cost....I was in London for four days and I got an Oyster card. That's what you do. When I was done I was able to return it at the airport and get back the deposit (or I could have kept it as a souvenir). So, now you're asking people to sign up for 2 systems and there is no way Metrolinx/MTO will let that happen, and rightly so.

Fare integration has nothing to do with the payment mechanism. You can very successfully integrate fares, as GO Transit has with every transit agency other than the TTC (GO's decision, not TTC's decision) using cash and transfers, and across teh board with the GTA Weekly Pass. You can do it with open-payment and Presto too.

Payment is about how funds get from your wallet to the farebox. Integrated fares has to do with how that payment is split up and transfer mechanism required.

Presto changes the payment mechanism and takes no advances toward improved integration. In fact, it may even be a step backward with regard to the GTA Weekly Pass (I haven't seen that Presto supports this mechanism).