Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Justin10000]

^^BART tested open fare payment in 2008 with cellphones. From what I read, the customer feedback was positive.

Here is Steve Munro's take on the "Smart Card Wars"

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=4141#more-4141

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Maybe the system should adopt both? Open fare as a replacement for cash fare; Presto as a replacement for all the various types of passes? There is something to be said about the benefit of being able to access transit without having to find a booth/operator, feed a card with funds, etc. But of course, the private sector firm behind Presto might not like that given the assumptions made in the business case.

AoD

 

[Jonny5]

^^BART tested open fare payment in 2008 with cellphones. From what I read, the customer feedback was positive.

Here is Steve Munro's take on the "Smart Card Wars"

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=4141#more-4141

The most important take-away from that that isn't common knowledge around here is this part:

The Presto system depends on back-end services provided to Metrolinx by Accenture who, as I understand things, bases their fees on transaction counts. Without the TTC on the system, the potential fees are much lower, and the business model falls apart..... Is there a contractual arrangement requiring Queen’s Park to make up a minimum payment to operate Presto?....Is Queen’s Park locked into a high-cost, proprietary technology?

I wonder if the TTC is simply calling the provinces bluff on this. Perhaps to force them to say, "Yes, the contract makes it too costly to implement any technology other than PRESTO".
This would give them leverage to make the proving fund the whole cost of roll-out cost.

 

[Fred.S]

I'm thinking that if Presto was contracted out to a credit card or bank, then it could basically become like an interac card or pre-loaded credit card. It could be used the same way as it's being used currently, but now it'll be fully compatible with open-payment. Reloading would be done by ATMs in the stations that are also able to load money onto the card (but also be used as a regular ATM). I don't know how long Acenture's contract to run Presto is, but it seams to me that it could be cheaper to integrate it with open-payment then to run both systems in parallel. I'm sure the banks would be happy to start putting their machines into all the subway and GO stations, with much less of a cost to Metrolinx and the TTC.

I think the fare system itself is something that really needs to be looked at. I'm a supporter of a standardized GTA-wide distance-based tap-on/tap-off fare system...

 

[nfitz]

Giambrone is twittering up a storm this afternoon:

Province signed secret $250M contract for Presto. What is in it? #TTC can't afford to enter into contracts without all the details.

Presto was state of the art when announced 7 years ago but is already obsolete. Adopting Presto would just be throwing good money after bad

Mayoral candidates need to decide if they will stand up for Toronto or if they just want to impose the Province's will on the City.

 

[Justin10000]

^^Wow!

I am taking this from Steve Munro, and maybe someone here can clarify it, but is it true you will not be able to load passes into the e-purse? That's a serious drawback if it's true. I do not see why it should be hard to simply pay the cost of a pass online, or at an agent and use the PRESTO card as normal pass.

 

[Tuscani01]

^^Wow!

I am taking this from Steve Munro, and maybe someone here can clarify it, but is it true you will not be able to load passes into the e-purse? That's a serious drawback if it's true. I do not see why it should be hard to simply pay the cost of a pass online, or at an agent and use the PRESTO card as normal pass.

Its not possible to load a pass for the TTC, not because it is not possible, but because the TTC hasn't fully signed on yet.

Look at Oakville Transit's fare policy with Presto for an example of how it could work if the TTC fully adopted it!

- Fares -

Number of rides Cost/trip
rides 1-8 $3
ride 9 $1.50
ride 10 $0
rides 11-34 $2.55
ride 35 $1.30
ride 36 and more $0

How will PRESTO affect fares?
Each transit provider sets its own fares. The cost of riding an Oakville Transit bus will not change with the introduction of the PRESTO card. The price you pay per ride using the PRESTO card will change based on how often you ride. A current monthly pass will be equal to 35 rides using your PRESTO card.

 

[EnviroTO]

I don't know how Rossi can be pro-Presto and be a conservative at the same time. The province is getting into the payment card business with Accenture and this is a good idea? Conservatives are now for selling the LCBO which makes money while being for creating a government run pre-pay card system which will surely waste money? There is only one government agency in the country that would make sense to be in the payment system business... the Bank of Canada.

 

[Fred.S]

I'd rather have it so the system caps your monthly amount at the metropass rate. So, if you use less then a metropass-worth of fares, your paying for each fare, but once you hit a certain balance before the end of the month, your card (credit/debit/presto/whatever) turns into a metropass. You can do this for daily/weekly passes as well. That should negate the need to put the ability of passes onto fare cards.

 

[Justin10000]

Its not possible to load a pass for the TTC, not because it is not possible, but because the TTC hasn't fully signed on yet.

Look at Oakville Transit's fare policy with Presto for an example of how it could work if the TTC fully adopted it!

- Fares -

Number of rides Cost/trip
rides 1-8 $3
ride 9 $1.50
ride 10 $0
rides 11-34 $2.55
ride 35 $1.30
ride 36 and more $0

How will PRESTO affect fares?
Each transit provider sets its own fares. The cost of riding an Oakville Transit bus will not change with the introduction of the PRESTO card. The price you pay per ride using the PRESTO card will change based on how often you ride. A current monthly pass will be equal to 35 rides using your PRESTO card.

Where in my post did I mention the TTC?

 

[nfitz]

I am taking this from Steve Munro, and maybe someone here can clarify it, but is it true you will not be able to load passes into the e-purse?

No, it's not true. I think you have misinterpreted what was said over there.

Presto mentions monthly passes in their FAQ

Will monthly/weekly passes still be available? Each transit authority will continue to set its own fare policy. Some will continue to offer a monthly pass, while others will be moving to a “frequent rider†program where the fare is reduced after a set number of trips have been taken. Watch for more information on this from your transit service provider.

Elsewhere they have mentioned that the PRESTO system will be upgraded to handle passes later this year. Though it does seem redundant based on the pricing policies of the agencies who have come on board so far. I guess if your on some kind of annual pass, where you are paying $111 a month instead of $121 a month it might make sense.

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't know how Rossi can be pro-Presto and be a conservative at the same time. The province is getting into the payment card business with Accenture and this is a good idea? Conservatives are now for selling the LCBO which makes money while being for creating a government run pre-pay card system which will surely waste money? There is only one government agency in the country that would make sense to be in the payment system business... the Bank of Canada.

Selling money making businesses to the private sector and continuing to operate those services which are necessary but lose money is exactly my vision/interpretation of what it is to be a (small c) conservative. Conservatitves are about smaller government and the best way to achieve that is to not be involved in operating businesses in competition with the private sector but, rather, focus on those services that the public need (or want) which do not generate the amount of profit/cash flow to attract the private sector into the space.

There is no need for the government to tie up capital by owning the LCBO....they can cash out at a multiple of annual earnings (the market is pretty efficient at establishing the multiples that businesses should trade at) exchanging future earnings for cash today. They can continue to regulate the sale of alcohol and continue to tax the product. Take the billions they will get for the operating business and, either, invest it in needed public services/infrastructure or (probably wiser) pay off some public debt (reduction in public debt is the gift that keeps on giving by reducing annual debt service costs).

 

[Tuscani01]

Where in my post did I mention the TTC?

You didn't, but Monroe did.

 

[DavidH]

^^Wow!

I am taking this from Steve Munro, and maybe someone here can clarify it, but is it true you will not be able to load passes into the e-purse? That's a serious drawback if it's true. I do not see why it should be hard to simply pay the cost of a pass online, or at an agent and use the PRESTO card as normal pass.

To add a bit more detail, as I understand it the underlying system does allow for the concept of passes, but the operators implementing it have moved towards the idea of loyalty pricing. The idea is that if you are at the level of usage where you woudl buy a pass, you will get the same total pricing just by riding the system, including reaching a point at which further rides in a month are free. However, if you DON'T ride enough in a month to justify the cost of a pass (say, due to a vacation), you will pay only for the rides you took and will save some money.

The point here is that you get all of the benefits of the pass, including the ability to claim it for income tax purposes, without needing to commit to making a certain number of rides in a month. You can just ride the system and now that you are getting the best available pricing depending on your total number of rides.

On another note, Giambrone's Twitter war against PRESTO continues. One posting read: Presto was state of the art when announced 7 years ago but is already obsolete. Adopting Presto would just be throwing good money after bad

Now, later he did admit in a response to someone: @majken we will support taking Presto, but it is expensive and we're not able to pay for it. Open payments is cheaper and the future.

There seems to be a lot of political posturing going on right now.

PS, word from a birdie is that there are a LOT of TTC riders using PRESTO between the supported subway stations.

 

[Justin10000]

Clearly I misinterpreted what was said, and thinking about it, I would like to see both the smart card AND open fare collection. I am not against PRESTO by any means, I do plan to get one when Brampton Transit rolls out their system.

One the issue of the TTC, If the province is adamant the TTC implement PRESTO, why not just pay for the entire installation? If the TTC has to pay 2/3rd funding., and the open payment turns out to be the cheaper option, why should the TTC commit to the more expensive option? The province can end this posturing and just pay for the entire installation.