Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[Allandale25]

^ I'm optimistic the next round of LRT expansion and procurement will go smoother. Hopefully there are also fewer instances of changes to projects, scope changes and everyone, including municipal councils, is on the same page from the beginning of a project design to opening day.

 

[smallspy]

Alstom stated back in 2005 in an email that went to TTC commissioners that they could have 2 cars here in 2007 that would meet most of TTC requirement using TTC gauge as well track gauge was it was a none issue in the first place. Alstom can use the same off the shelf model for systems that different gauges withe the cost of the wheels being peanuts. The chair of TTC stated that unless the cars are coming from Thunder Bay, they would never be allow to run on TTC once they got here.

Really Drum? Do we need to have this discussion again?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

^ For some reason I don't recall it so I'd be happy to hear any information you can share on this Dan.

 

[TransitBart]

We should buy the Alstom. It's prettiest.

Why is it prettiest? I am studying the pics and I can't decide.

 

[TransitBart]

Comes in different size too

So which of these was purchased and how many?

And they are for Finch West, Hurontario and Hamilton? Thus far at least?

 

[steveintoronto]

So which of these was purchased and how many?

Alstom has been awarded a firm order for the supply of 61 Citadis Spirit light rail vehicles for the Greater Toronto and Hamilton area (GTHA) by Metrolinx, an agency of the Government of Ontario. The value of the contract is over €355 million (CA$529 million). The vehicle supply contract includes an option for additional vehicles.

Alstom will supply Metrolinx a 48-metre Citadis Spirit, which has a passenger capacity of 321. The Citadis Spirit is a 100% low-floor vehicle that offers easy accessibility from the street or the curb, and an interior layout featuring a wide central aisle and interior circulation that provide a safer and more enjoyable experience.

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...hicles-for-greater-toronto-and-hamilton-area/

 

[TOareaFan]

So which of these was purchased and how many?

And they are for Finch West, Hurontario and Hamilton? Thus far at least?

61 vehicles purchased the ones they bought are (I believe) 48m long and have a capacity of 292.

 

[robmausser]

Its unfortunate that the Flexities are poised for the Crosstown and the Alstom vehicles for Finch and Hurontario.

The Alstoms are bigger, and in terms of ridership the Crosstown will have the most.

I realize you can couple together Flexities, but i'd rather use the naturally bigger vehicles where they are warranted.

I almost hope Bomb misses their deadlines for Crosstown so we get the bigger, and in my opinion, better vehicles.

Personally I don't foresee them needing more than one of the short Flexities on the Hurontario route. Especially off-peak.

It would be a shame to see a half full Alstom vehicle on Hurontario while we all cram into 2 coupled Flexities on Crosstown.

 

[steveintoronto]

The Alstoms are bigger, and in terms of ridership the Crosstown will have the most.

The Citadis are superior in many ways. Although a variant of what is being assembled in Ottawa, (and ordered by Metrolinx), this model following could just as easily be utilized on RER in Toronto...*and run on the Metrolinx LRTs!* in the dual mode 750VDC/25kVAC option:

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/Resources/Documents/Brochure - Rolling Stock - Citadis Dualis - Configurations and options - English .pdf

Alstom’s Citadis Dualis tram-train enters commercial service on the Epinay-sur-Seine - Le Bourget line (Tram 11 Express)
30/06/2017

Alstom's Citadis Dualis tram-trains will start commercial service tomorrow on the section of the T11 Express line that runs between Epinay-sur-Seine and Le Bourget. The first Citadis Dualis was delivered to SNCF Mobilités for Ile-de-France in August 2016 followed by a delivery rate of one train per month[1], making it possible to carry out tests progressively[2].

Designed based on Alstom's Citadis tram, the Citadis Dualis tram-train can run on a tramway network just as easily as on a regional rail network thanks to adaptations related to power, safety and comfort. This configuration makes it a highly versatile means of transport: it has the same dimensions as a tram, meaning it can circulate in town, while its performance, the same as that of a train, allows it to transport passengers at speeds of nearly 100 km / h in outlying areas without the need to switch transport modes. Citadis Dualis provides the link between the city centre and the suburbs without having to change trains, reconciling the advantages of the train and the tram.

"Alstom's teams are very proud of the entry into commercial service of this new versatile mode of transport for SNCF and the STIF. In particular, we worked on increasing reliability to meet operational constraints in Ile-de-France," says Jean-Baptiste Eyméoud, President of Alstom in France.

48 Citadis Dualis tram-trains are in operation to date: 24 in the Rhône-Alpes region to the West of Lyon since 2012 and 24 in Pays-de-la-Loire, which entered commercial service on the Nantes-Clisson and Nantes-Châteaubriant lines in June 2011 and February 2014 respectively. The trains ordered for Ile-de-France are currently being manufactured in Valenciennes. Five other French Alstom sites are involved in the manufacturing process: Ornans for the motors, Le Creusot for the bogies, Tarbes for the traction drive equipment, Villeurbanne for the on-board electronics and passenger information systems, and Saint-Ouen for the design.


[1] These tram-trains are part of the framework contract signed in 2007 by SNCF for 200 train sets. Two options have been exercised for Ile-de-France, one for 15 trains in June 2014 for the T11 Express line, and one for 15 trains in December 2015, to be delivered from October 2017 with commercial commissioning planned for 2018 on line T4.

[2] Authorisation for entry into commercial service (AMEC) was given on 14 March by the Public Railway Safety Authority (EPSF) and since 15 May, mock test-runs have been carried out to ensure that entry into commercial service takes place in the best possible conditions.

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...ay-sur-seine-le-bourget-line-tram-11-express/

Note that this is SNCF, the *national passenger rail operator* of France, rough analog: VIA Rail.

The Société nationale des chemins de fer français (SNCF, "National society of French railways" or "French National Railway Corporation") is France's national state-owned railway company. It operates the country's national rail traffic (including Monaco), including the TGV, France's high-speed rail network. Its functions include operation of railway services for passengers and freight, and maintenance and signalling of rail infrastructure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF

And last but not least:

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transp...s - Configurations and options - English .pdf

 

[Leo_Chan]

And last but not least:

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transp...s - Configurations and options - English .pdf

Is there any way to have this for the TR Subway Trains?

 

[TOareaFan]

I just think we will end up regretting buying fewer, larger vehicles for a lot more money.

You can fit more people into a larger car (although “total capacity” is now lower) but you can’t make them come more frequently.....

.....less cars means either decreased frequencies or fewer lines.......or even more expense to buy more from somewhere else.

 

[W. K. Lis]

No toilets, please. Some Toronto Councillors consider them "gravy".

Remember, from this link.

Which maybe why there's only one set of public washrooms on the Line 1 extension.

 

[steveintoronto]

Is there any way to have this for the TR Subway Trains?

The raison d'être is different for urban subways. They should be at stations, not on the subway vehicles. Note that Alstom qualify the need with "suburban configurations" which in most cities equates to RER, for which these vehicles are excellent for, and a lot cheaper to buy and operate than full heavy rail EMUs.

No toilets, please. Some Toronto Councillors consider them "gravy".

It's very much an Anglo thing...and I'm very born and raised Anglo!

The size of the economy, the quality of the architecture, the activity on the sidewalks, the cleanliness of the streets: we can evaluate a city in any number of ways. But in my travels through North America, Europe and Asia, I’ve found no more telling indicator – and at times, no more important one – than the state of its subway station toilets, the true measure of urban civilisation.

Of course, to use this marker at all presumes a certain degree of development: not only must the city in question have a subway system, but that system must have toilets. Los Angeles, where I live, just barely clears that first hurdle (its long-awaited and much-delayed “subway to the sea” having resumed construction last year) but crashes right into the second. The LA County Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which presides over 80 overground and underground stations, maintains a grand total of three toilets – none of which I use if I can avoid it – and didn’t reply to a request for comment.

Still, by American standards, Los Angeles doesn’t lag as far behind as it may seem to. A US city can count itself lucky if it has rail transit at all, let alone proper facilities. Part of the reason has to do with the country’s deeply entrenched fear of public amenity, as reflected by the words of political humorist PJ O’Rourke: “Note the mental image evoked by the very word public: public school, public park, public health, public housing. To call something public is to define it as dirty, insufficient and hazardous. The ultimate paradigm of social spending is the public restroom.”

“Throughout the United States there is a general lack of available restrooms for users of public mass transit,” write Robert Brubaker and Carol McCreary of the American Restroom Association. Their paper US Public Health Mandates and the Restroom Problem in America, presented at Delhi’s 2007 World Toilet Summit, finds that “despite broad citizen demand for restrooms, city, town and county governments throughout the United States continue to close public restrooms,” citing “security issues”. These “issues”, they argue, embody a whole gamut of fears ranging from international terrorism, immoral behaviour, to vandalism and misuse of premises for criminal activities. [...]

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/10/subway-station-toilets-indicator-urban-civilisation

It's been years since I've been to Montreal, how are they there for washrooms?

Addendum:

Considering they serve a fairly basic function, installing public toilets in a dense urban setting is a complex challenge many major North American cities have managed to fail.

Seattle spent $5 million on five high-tech, self-cleaning toilets in 2003. Stymied by filth, drug use and prostitution, the city threw in the towel five years later and sold them on eBay for $2,500 each.

New York City went through three municipal administrations and 18 years of promises and failed to implement them. Finally, billionaire mayor and philanthropist Michael R. Bloomberg deemed them an essential human right and made public toilets the third priority of his electoral campaign after education and the city budget.

Bloomberg signed a deal in 2005 with a Spanish company to install 20 automated toilets, for free, in exchange for the right to post advertisements. A decade later, only five are open and 15 of them are sitting in a warehouse in Queens.

Toronto, too, signed a contract to install 20 German-made public toilets in 2007. The cost of each was $450,000, the expense to be covered by Astral Media as part of an advertising agreement. Six years later, only three have been installed. The first two had to be shut temporarily over two successive winters because their water lines froze.

It is with a mix of civic pride and some trepidation, then, that Montreal’s Ville-Marie borough approved a contract in April to install 12 self-cleaning public toilets downtown and in Old Montreal.

It will be the first time in nearly half a century that public toilets return to the downtown core, much to the relief of tourists, shop owners and homeless-rights advocates who have been requesting them for years. [...]

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-enters-brave-new-world-of-public-toilets

 

[jys]

I thought the Eglinton Crosstown line is going to use the Alstom LRVs, but maybe not

Its unfortunate that the Flexities are poised for the Crosstown and the Alstom vehicles for Finch and Hurontario.
It would be a shame to see a half full Alstom vehicle on Hurontario while we all cram into 2 coupled Flexities on Crosstown.

Although I do understand your frustrations, 48m LRVs are perfect for the Hurontario LRT because it was suppose to use 2 30m Flexities coupled together. IIRC according to the projected ridership numbers, the 60m train would be less than half full during off-peak peroids and 3/4 full during peak periods, which means that 1 48m train operating on the same frequency would be just about full during peak periods and about 3/4 full during off-peak periods.

Personally I don't foresee them needing more than one of the short Flexities on the Hurontario route. Especially off-peak.

Unfortunately that's not how it works. One Flexity would not be enough during peak periods and it would be impractical to separate them during operations.

 

[jys]

I just think we will end up regretting buying fewer, larger vehicles for a lot more money.
You can fit more people into a larger car (although “total capacity” is now lower) but you can’t make them come more frequently.....
.....less cars means either decreased frequencies or fewer lines.......or even more expense to buy more from somewhere else.

I don't disagree with your point. However, larger vehicles also mean fewer drivers and as a result reduced operating expenses.