Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[SaugeenJunction]

Really not sure. Not sure if one is dependent on the other. Maybe it would simply be adjacent to the MSF? Not sure what the actual MSF construction timeframe is and can't recall if there a more specific construction schedule available for the HuLRT.

One advantage of having a production facility that directly connects to the HuLRT is that they can eliminate transporting LRVs by truck, and can test them at the OMSF directly (not applicable to the Finch West LRT). Having a facility that connects to heavy rail doesn't help as the HuLRT and Finch West LRT as neither has a natural connection to heavy rail. Allendale25's idea makes sense, but we will see!

 

[crs1026]

The Alsthom vehicles will not be manufactured at the MSF. There will be a production facility. Deliveries will be by truck. But... if there are more orders, the facility will be available to produce those. That’s a toehold that Bombardier can’t undo.

- Paul

 

[MetroMan]

It’s official: Bombardier will miss the lower target it had already lowered a couple of months ago.

Toronto Star:
Bombardier to miss revised year-end target for TTC streetcars
Target of delivering a total of 65 cars by the end of 2017 was set just two months ago, and was less than half the number originally agreed to.

And then have the gall to say that “We are working over the holidays to honour our commitment.” Which commitment? Honour???

 

[Adjei]

It’s official: Bombardier will miss the lower target it had already lowered a couple of months ago.

Toronto Star:
Bombardier to miss revised year-end target for TTC streetcars
Target of delivering a total of 65 cars by the end of 2017 was set just two months ago, and was less than half the number originally agreed to.

And then have the gall to say that “We are working over the holidays to honour our commitment.” Which commitment? Honour???

And some will blame Metrolinx for trying to look for a backup plan..

 

[TOareaFan]

It’s official: Bombardier will miss the lower target it had already lowered a couple of months ago.

Toronto Star:
Bombardier to miss revised year-end target for TTC streetcars
Target of delivering a total of 65 cars by the end of 2017 was set just two months ago, and was less than half the number originally agreed to.

And then have the gall to say that “We are working over the holidays to honour our commitment.” Which commitment? Honour???

Isn’t this the other (TTC) order?

 

[pman]

Bombardier missing a delivery deadline isn’t news. If BBD ever made a delivery deadline it would belong on page one above the fold.

 

[pstogios]

Isn’t this the other (TTC) order?

Yes. That post should be moved to the Flexity TTC streetcars thread.

 

[cplchanb]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...lrt-cars-in-toronto-create-120-jobs-1.4460579

not sure if this is still news on this thread but ML is slashing their bbr order by over 100 to just 76 cars. thats going to be a huge blow for bbr and a win for alstom (IF they can deliver)

 

[MetroMan]

Isn’t this the other (TTC) order?

Do you mean the additional 60 cars? No. After their mea culpa Bombardier had promised 70 cars by the end of 2017 — we fixed the problems and we mean it — and a couple of months ago, reduced that to 65 — we really mean it this time. Now, it's 63. Bombardier's word means nothing. I'm glad that they're starting to pay for their incompetence with Metrolinx slashing their order in half. The TTC should absolutely consider doing the same with the +60 order and with the rest of the order if it's not on track for 100% delivery by the end of 2019.

I wonder if the province's Alstom LRT train can be used on LRT-like routes on the TTC like the 510 and 509. If they can deliver unlike Bombardier, maybe the TTC can get a court order to cancel the contract and have Alstom trains run on Spadina and Harbourfront routes.

 

[Karen Fox]

Do you mean the additional 60 cars? No. After their mea culpa Bombardier had promised 70 cars by the end of 2017 — we fixed the problems and we mean it — and a couple of months ago, reduced that to 65 — we really mean it this time. Now, it's 63. Bombardier's word means nothing. I'm glad that they're starting to pay for their incompetence with Metrolinx slashing their order in half. The TTC should absolutely consider doing the same with the +60 order and with the rest of the order if it's not on track for 100% delivery by the end of 2019.

I wonder if the province's Alstom LRT train can be used on LRT-like routes on the TTC like the 510 and 509. If they can deliver unlike Bombardier, maybe the TTC can get a court order to cancel the contract and have Alstom trains run on Spadina and Harbourfront routes.

The Alstom light rail vehicles would have standard track gauge (1,435 mm), like the Bombardier Flexity Freedom light rail vehicles. They would not be used on the legacy TTC streetcar routes which use TTC gauge (1,495 mm), like the Bombardire Flexity Outlook streetcars.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Alstom light rail vehicles would have standard track gauge (1,435 mm), like the Bombardier Flexity Freedom light rail vehicles. They would not be used on the legacy TTC streetcar routes which use TTC gauge (1,495 mm), like the Bombardire Flexity Outlook streetcars.

Welcome to UT!

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

What's everyone's opinion on this? Is it a punishment of Bombardier or an admission that Metrolinx ordered too many vehicles?

Metrolinx ordered too many and don't need all of them although I really don't get why Finch west has to be different completely and why is the yet unplanned Sheppard east line being talked about. The Alstrom cars shopuld be used for the projets outside of Torontro for consitencey. Metrolinx by doing this still shows they have no clue how to buy transit vehicles.

 

[drum118]

The Alstom light rail vehicles would have standard track gauge (1,435 mm), like the Bombardier Flexity Freedom light rail vehicles. They would not be used on the legacy TTC streetcar routes which use TTC gauge (1,495 mm), like the Bombardire Flexity Outlook streetcars.

Track gauge is nothing to any system if allowance has been made for the same size body. Using track gauge is a red herring saying X car can run on this system, but not on this one. How many PCC cars bought by TTC had to have the trucks change to TTC gauge or change to others when TTC sold them in the 50-70's???

Alstom stated back in 2005 in an email that went to TTC commissioners that they could have 2 cars here in 2007 that would meet most of TTC requirement using TTC gauge as well track gauge was it was a none issue in the first place. Alstom can use the same off the shelf model for systems that different gauges withe the cost of the wheels being peanuts. The chair of TTC stated that unless the cars are coming from Thunder Bay, they would never be allow to run on TTC once they got here.

Can't use Alstom cars plan for Metrolinx due the the length of the sections on TTC system. If you use Alstom 5-9 section cars in place of the 4 section, would meet TTC requirement.

In fact, Philadelphia can use either BBD or Alstom cars, considering they have wider gauge than TTC. The Down side is the fact that Philadelphia has 10 m curves in tunnels.

 

[drum118]

Metrolinx ordered too many and don't need all of them although I really don't get why Finch west has to be different completely and why is the yet unplanned Sheppard east line being talked about. The Alstrom cars shopuld be used for the projets outside of Torontro for consitencey. Metrolinx by doing this still shows they have no clue how to buy transit vehicles.

Given the fact what was plan under Transit City and elsewhere, Metrolinx order the right number on Day One. Metrolinx was screw by Toronto not building the Sheppard, SRT and other extensions since the city saw a different vision known as subway.

If the Sheppard line was built and open in 2014 as plan, there would be not cars for it today. Toronto has moved from building LRT lines as plan to white elephant subway, costing more and taking longer to build than the LRT lines. Toronto problem, not Metrolinx.

 

[TOareaFan]

Did a bit of number crunching on this (i had asked AMA how the deals/orders compared on a price per passenger basis as the vehicle sizes are different....she said she did not have the numbers at hand but "they were comparable".)

What I have been able to read is that the BBD vehicles have 56 seats each and standing for 130......couldn't find a similar breakdown for the Alstoms but I did read that the varient ordered has a capacity per car of 292.

If that is the case, the old deal was buying vehicles with a total capacity of 33,852 and the new deal(s) combine for 31204....a 7.l8% reduction.

The total cost of the new deals is $920MM which is a $150MM (19.48%) increase.

Another way to look at this is that the price per "passenger capacity" of these orders has gone from $22,746 to $29,483 just shy of a 30% increase.

If the capacity numbers I have used are wrong I can fix them (but it seems to be what is out there).......I will leave it up to each person to determine if they think this is comparable but somehow I can't see a 30% increase being comparable.