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Mayor John Tory's Toronto

Admiral Beez said:
DoFo will veto this.
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Huh?

No such statutory power.

Admittedly DoFo does some odd and stupid things; but are you suggesting he's going to introduce and pass a bill through the legislature in the spring session to roll back a City of Toronto tax hike?

Seems improbable.
 
Northern Light said:
Huh?

No such statutory power.

Admittedly DoFo does some odd and stupid things; but are you suggesting he's going to introduce and pass a bill through the legislature in the spring session to roll back a City of Toronto tax hike?

Seems improbable.
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Did the last premier stop Tory on road tolls? Seems like Queens Park has strong dictatorial powers, and DoFo wants to be mayor of Toronto, and will be fielding calls to do something.

As for myself, I fear the department heads will see a major tax increase with hand-wringing glee. I expect much of any immediate budget windfall to go immediately to increases in salaries and expansions or launching of new departments.
 
Admiral Beez said:
As for myself, I fear the department heads will see a major tax increase with hand-wringing glee. I expect much of any immediate budget windfall to go immediately to increases in salaries and expansions or launching of new departments.
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You are really too cynical, time to sit back and have another pint (or two ) of Guinness. The City clearly NEEDS more $$$ to keep things in shape (to say nothing of expanding things and dealing with increased population. My fear is that Tory will not ask for a LARGE ENOUGH increase to do more than yet more band-aid fixes.
 
DSC said:
The City clearly NEEDS more $$$ to keep things in shape (to say nothing of expanding things and dealing with increased population.
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Then raise the property taxes FFS. I can’t stand these death by a thousand cuts levies. I assume the new a Tory levy comes on the property tax bill anyway, so why not just raise the rates.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Then raise the property taxes FFS. I can’t stand these death by a thousand cuts levies. I assume the new a Tory levy comes on the property tax bill anyway, so why not just raise the rates.
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I agree that it's 'all money' but levies are collected with a particular end in view. e.g. The Rob Ford Memorial Subway, the John Tory Memorial Streetcars etc etc They are used in many jurisdictions to ensure the $$ go to where they are supposed to go and to reassure people like you who say things like "I expect much of any immediate budget windfall to go immediately to increases in salaries and expansions or launching of new departments. "
 
Admiral Beez said:
As for myself, I fear the department heads will see a major tax increase with hand-wringing glee. I expect much of any immediate budget windfall to go immediately to increases in salaries and expansions or launching of new departments.
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Naaah, mate. The Minister of Middle Class Prosperity role has already been filled in Ottawa. Thank you for your concern.
 
Northern Light said:
No to:

Move to means testing for universal programs to increase access to services while ensuring those who have the ability to pay do so.

In my experience means-testing is cumbersome for those who have to qualify; they now need tax returns and other paperwork, its rather stigmatizing, software has to be licensed which tracks this information, workers have to process and do data-entry on it; and its really used to reduce benefits or raise prices for services for the general population.

The result is that you end up with a decline in use of recreation centres or childcare by the middle class or the rich, which in turn tends to lead to a deterioration of service quality.

***

Report here:

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Nah, that's perfect. I love contributing to things I don't get to touch. Makes me feel useful. This shitty 70's apartment block I'm overpaying for is almost too good for my hard-working arse in relation to those new TCHC digs in Regent Park and Corktown.

Paying twice is twice as nice, mate.
 
Why Are Property Taxes Higher in the Suburbs?

See link.

Why Do the Suburbs Cost More?​
​
There are a few reasons it tends to cost more to live in the ‘burbs, and they all go back to the basic equation of assessed value * property tax rate = municipal revenue.​
  • Lower home values – Homes in the suburbs in general cost less than homes in urban centres. As such, a higher property tax is required to bring in the revenue needed for city upkeep.
  • Lower density – Unlike their sprawling urban counterparts, suburbs are less dense in terms of real estate, so more taxes per household are required to meet budgetary requirements.
  • Fewer commercial properties – A large portion of property tax revenue is made up of commercial properties, which pay a higher rate. Areas like Durham region must cover the shortfall of fewer commercial properties by collecting more from residential taxpayers.
  • Infrastructure development – Growing cities require taxes to fund infrastructure, often resulting in higher taxes for households.
 
SunriseChampion said:
Why might the rate in Toronto be lower?
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We don’t have lower property taxes. Property value aside, take a five bedroom semi like mine and put it in Mississauga, and I guarantee I pay more. That’s because property tax is set as a percentage of its assessed value, and Mississauga is worth less. That‘s the problem with these property tax comparisons, they take a hypothetical equal value home, when they should be using a hypothetical house type. I bought my house in 1998, when it was about a quarter million, but now it’s valued at four times that, but my use of city services has not quadrupled, nor has my ability to pay quadrupled.
 
Admiral Beez said:
We don’t have lower property taxes. Property value aside, take a five bedroom semi like mine and put it in Mississauga, and I guarantee I pay more. That’s because property tax is set as a percentage of its assessed value, and Mississauga is worth less. That‘s the problem with these property tax comparisons, they take a hypothetical equal value home, when they should be using a hypothetical house type. I bought my house in 1998, when it was about a quarter million, but now it’s valued at four times that, but my use of city services has not quadrupled, nor has my ability to pay quadrupled.
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The comparison is accurate, IF, one uses a 'Market Value Assessment' approach, which is what the entire province uses.

You seem to want a 'Unit Value Assessment' approach, which I basically favour. One in which a calculation is done based on frontage, (determines length of road, watermain etc along your property), square footage (as a proxy for number of people), number of bathrooms and whether you have a pool (proxy for water/sewer) etc.

Here's the thing, in that model the average Toronto home would still be paying less than the typical home in Durham, York or Peel.

We know this, in part, because taxes aren't simply compared on an assessment basis; they are compared on a cash per household basis.

Lets take a look at the year 2016 for detailed stats.



1575632490614.png

Graphic above is from here: https://johnowen.realtor/blog.html/why-are-property-taxes-so-high-in-oshawa-2952469

Note that this graphic above removes any reference to assessed value and looks instead at all taxes on an as paid basis.

While its certainly true that your home in Cabbagetown may be a bit smaller in sq ft or lot size than a home of comparable value in Oshawa............

The Toronto number above includes lots of detached homes in Scarborough and Etobicoke with larger lots sizes and comparable numbers of bedrooms at lesser assessed values.

So, even if you swapped out the MVA system for UVA, you wouldn't be changing that overall number for Toronto.

Instead, you'd be slightly lower that number for smaller homes of higher value; and increasing it for larger homes of lower value.

When you make an apples to apples comparison of similar homes, I selected a 3brm, 3bath, detached for Toronto, saw a property tax number under 4k per year if it was in Etobicoke or Scarborough on a typical property.

Where as the similar property in Oshawa had property tax of over 5k per year.

You are indeed a 'special case'..... in that your home's assessed value is high not just by GTA standards, but by City of Toronto ones as well.

Aiming for what you asked for: I searched semi-detached, 5 bedroom, for Toronto, those were too rare, so I rolled it back to 4bdrm to get a good sample size.

That gave me a Leslieville, 4bdrm Semi @ $999,000 listing price with $5,002 in annual property tax.

Where a comparator property in Mississauga, using that, I could only find one at $909,000 listing that was similar (4brdm semi), and its annual tax tab was $4,840

I tried to compare with Durham region and York but too few semis to get useful numbers; so I modified the search to detached, 4bdrm.

What I found was property taxes at just over $2,479 on the first listing and $3,397 on the second (both asking $999,000) in Toronto.
Listings:

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By comparison, a 3brdm detached in Mississauga, valued at $989,000 for sale pays property tax of $5,286

Listing:

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I think your sense of what the 'average property tax bill is off a bit.
 
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I think the important and politically important issue is that the tax increase is proposed as a levy. Why a levy instead of a general mill rate increase? I believe it's not cynical to presume that general revenue will be largely consumed by increased salary demands by public workers. Physical infrastructure and in particular maintenance of existing infrastructure and assets always looses funding fights with employment compensation demands in our system. By hiving off funding into a specific levy pot for say social housing or transit you can't stop the funding from getting pilfered by poor contract negotiation but you can keep it out of the hands of other City departments
 
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