Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

[micheal_can]

I didn't, no, I was speaking more broadly about VIA in general.

Train 185/186 does not have any real dining services. They do sell pop, water, coffee, and tea as well as snacks like chips or chocolate bars. They are priced around the same as a convenience store. Maybe with the new fleet, some sort of simple dining car may be nice...

 

[lenaitch]

if we want to speak of subsidizing, each route should be able to have a full train cover the expenses to run it.

So if they can't , do you support cancelling the service? I don't think all the marketing in the world would make runs like Senneterre, Churchill or even year-round Sudbury-White River (or Gaspe if it ever comes back) break even.

 

[micheal_can]

So if they can't , do you support cancelling the service? I don't think all the marketing in the world would make runs like Senneterre, Churchill or even year-round Sudbury-White River (or Gaspe if it ever comes back) break even.

Then you have a bad marketing team.

There is a team that figured out how to make us all pay for something we have for free - water.

TBH, via does not have a good marketing team.

 

[Urban Sky]

Friendly reminder that whereas “drinking water” is a need felt by all of the close to 8 billion humans on this planet, “travelling to White River, Ontario” is a need or desire felt by such an exceedingly small amount of people that there simply is no price point at which these services could break even, regardless of how many millions you waste on marketing these services. Even if you charged only a single dollar, these trains would not fill (and recover even much less of their operating costs than the measly single-digit percentage they do today).

 

[lenaitch]

Then you have a bad marketing team.

There is a team that figured out how to make us all pay for something we have for free - water.

TBH, via does not have a good marketing team.

You may be right about VIA's marketing team - I honestly don't know - but if you think enough people refusing to buy the unsellable is simply a matter of bad marketing then you astonishingly naive. Besides, I thought your position was simply 'build it and they will come'; a train from anywhere to anywhere will naturally be full.

 

[micheal_can]

You may be right about VIA's marketing team - I honestly don't know - but if you think enough people refusing to buy the unsellable is simply a matter of bad marketing then you astonishingly naive. Besides, I thought your position was simply 'build it and they will come'; a train from anywhere to anywhere will naturally be full.

For services that connect the various cities, yes,build it and they will come. However, the Sudbury- White River train is not that. Were it to be extended to Thunder Bay, then, less marketing would be needed. An example, the Northlander likely won't need much marketing to make it viable as it connects enough people along it to become viable if people know it exists. The Northlander is more like a Corridor train in that regard. The Sudbury - White River train does not connect enough people to make it viable just on those trips alone. However, there are enough people in the area/province/country/world that if it were marketed as a way to see nature that it could be filled. Though I haven't yet taken the 2 routes in Quebec, and the Gaspe train, I suspect these routes also could be marketed much the same way.

I have not changed my tune though, as I don't think I have ever suggesting adding services that do not connect a reasonable number of people. I am looking at these routes and asking how they can be made viable. That is the question the marketing department of Via should be asking, and then should be implementing.

 

[T3G]

Then you have a bad marketing team.

There is a team that figured out how to make us all pay for something we have for free - water.

TBH, via does not have a good marketing team.

Jesus Christ, this forum.

No one willingly pays for water. They do it because if they don't, they will die!

 

[micheal_can]

Jesus Christ, this forum.

No one willingly pays for water. They do it because if they don't, they will die!

Do you only use a refillable bottle and fill it from your tap?

 

[lenaitch]

For services that connect the various cities, yes,build it and they will come. However, the Sudbury- White River train is not that. Were it to be extended to Thunder Bay, then, less marketing would be needed. An example, the Northlander likely won't need much marketing to make it viable as it connects enough people along it to become viable if people know it exists. The Northlander is more like a Corridor train in that regard. The Sudbury - White River train does not connect enough people to make it viable just on those trips alone. However, there are enough people in the area/province/country/world that if it were marketed as a way to see nature that it could be filled. Though I haven't yet taken the 2 routes in Quebec, and the Gaspe train, I suspect these routes also could be marketed much the same way.

I have not changed my tune though, as I don't think I have ever suggesting adding services that do not connect a reasonable number of people. I am looking at these routes and asking how they can be made viable. That is the question the marketing department of Via should be asking, and then should be implementing.

I would have to be convinced that there is a critical mass of people who travel from Sudbury to Thunder Bay in sufficient quantity and frequency to justify a year-round train. Other than both being cities, I don't see a natural economic or commercial link between the two.

"Seeing nature" is a bit of an easier sell during the autumn and possibly summer, but I'm not sure it would be enough to attract people to make a two-day trip of it (only guessing - it takes nine hours to get from Sudbury to White River now). If the train itself was part of the experience then perhaps. That's what RMR is; charge big coin for a fancy all-daylight experience, overnighting at hotels along the way. I'm not sure the White River accommodations would be up to the challenge. Part of that 'big coin' is paying CPKC for daylight track access. Even at that, the Superior shoreline is scenic - I'm not sure it's mountain scenic. So, all that for a four-day look at nature.

I'm not so sure analyzing customer potential, passenger demographics, etc. is really a marketing department area of expertise, but whatever. VIA gets to run trains where the government says they can.

 

[micheal_can]

I would have to be convinced that there is a critical mass of people who travel from Sudbury to Thunder Bay in sufficient quantity and frequency to justify a year-round train. Other than both being cities, I don't see a natural economic or commercial link between the two.

"Seeing nature" is a bit of an easier sell during the autumn and possibly summer, but I'm not sure it would be enough to attract people to make a two-day trip of it (only guessing - it takes nine hours to get from Sudbury to White River now). If the train itself was part of the experience then perhaps. That's what RMR is; charge big coin for a fancy all-daylight experience, overnighting at hotels along the way. I'm not sure the White River accommodations would be up to the challenge. Part of that 'big coin' is paying CPKC for daylight track access. Even at that, the Superior shoreline is scenic - I'm not sure it's mountain scenic. So, all that for a four-day look at nature.

I'm not so sure analyzing customer potential, passenger demographics, etc. is really a marketing department area of expertise, but whatever. VIA gets to run trains where the government says they can.

Over on the Ontario Northland thread, I did lay out how as much as I want a train to Toronto from Sudbury, building that demand through buses that connect with the future Northlander is key. So, building a line between Sudbury and Thunder Bay, the bus should be busy enough that politically, it is worth implementing.

My thinking is the goal should be to fill the existing trains as much as possible. That is a marketing thing. In fact everything you listed is what a good marketing department of any company does. My trip had an RDC1, 2 and 4. If I had say as to how to do this, the RDC 1, which is an all passenger 90 seat car, would be reserveable like most others where you pick your seat. The RDC 2, which is a 70 seat car be used for those getting on along the way that have not reserved a seat. The RDC 4is a baggage car, so no changes needed. The marketing department focuses on filling those 90 seats. If they cannot do that, then what is the point of a marketing department?

 

[crs1026]

Over on the Ontario Northland thread, I did lay out how as much as I want a train to Toronto from Sudbury, building that demand through buses that connect with the future Northlander is key. So, building a line between Sudbury and Thunder Bay, the bus should be busy enough that politically, it is worth implementing.

Restoring bus on this route is a sensible first step, and I can support that. You just need to park your train aspirations for another decade, because the bus will not fill up overnight, and one full bus will not justify the added investment in infrastructure to then switch to a train. Several full buses a day will be needed.

The bus might even prove more flexible (ie more flag stops) and the train might never be a better solution. You may be waiting a while.

The marketing department focuses on filling those 90 seats. If they cannot do that, then what is the point of a marketing department?

In VIA's case, the marketing department has to document the business case (which does involve researching population, trips taken and potentially sellable, testing price points and quantifying potential revenue, and outlining the costs of possible strategies to build ridership) and take it to Transport Canada and sell it. Otherwise, there will be no subsidy while they are building that higher ridership. There is little room in VIA's remote service program to seek a greater subsidy or a more elaborate service plan.

As well, marketing's priority is to fill seats system wide. Finding 90 seats per train for the triweekly White River train is a lower potential revenue gain than finding 90 additional ticket sales daily for Windsor - Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal - Quebec City. Guess where there is more benefit for marketing's time and effort.

The White River train has empty seats, every day. We built it and they are not coming. I can't think of a marketing strategy that will change that any time soon.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Restoring bus on this route is a sensible first step, and I can support that. You just need to park your train aspirations for another decade, because the bus will not fill up overnight, and one full bus will not justify the added investment in infrastructure to then switch to a train. Several full buses a day will be needed.

The bus might even prove more flexible (ie more flag stops) and the train might never be a better solution. You may be waiting a while.

My train aspirations are:
Sudbury -North Bay - Toronto: An announcement like we had with the Northlander within a decade of the Northlander entering revenue service with a bus to meet it.
SSM - Sudbury-... About a decade after that.
Thunder Bay - ..Hopefully before the 100th anniversary of Via.

I want things now, but I know that is not realistic with the political landscape.

In VIA's case, the marketing department has to document the business case (which does involve researching population, trips taken and potentially sellable, testing price points and quantifying potential revenue, and outlining the costs of possible strategies to build ridership) and take it to Transport Canada and sell it. Otherwise, there will be no subsidy while they are building that higher ridership.

However, their priority is to fill seats system wide. Finding 90 seats per train for the triweekly White River train is a lower potential revenue gain than finding 90 additional ticket sales daily for Windsor - Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal - Quebec City. Guess where there is more benefit for marketing's time and effort.

The White River train has empty seats, every day. We built it and they are not coming. I can't think of a marketing strategy that will change that any time soon.

- Paul

Via should be working on ensuring each route can stand on its own financially. The Corridor Service can. The Canadian can. Time to focus on the rest.

 

[ARG1]

Do you only use a refillable bottle and fill it from your tap?

I... can't even...

You'll be hard pressed to find many people that buy bottled water as a form of luxury. Whilst you might find random hipsters that refuse to drink anything other than Fiji, for the rest of us, we usually only buy it when there isn't another option, or to keep it around in our car when we find ourselves in places where water isn't readily available. This is also ignoring the fact that unless you live next to a fresh water source (something that only several thousands of people could say in this whole country), water is by no means "free". We either have to pay a water bill every month, or we pay for it via monthly condo fees. Best case scenario you can find a water fountain in a park or some institution which is subsidized by the owners - keyword being subsidized. In what universe is extracting and purifying water a free process? Even if it was entirely paid for and subsidized by the government, that's still coming out of your pocket via taxes.

Seriously, out of all of the metaphors you can think of, it really had to be water?

 

[micheal_can]

I... can't even...

You'll be hard pressed to find many people that buy bottled water as a form of luxury. Whilst you might find random hipsters that refuse to drink anything other than Fiji, for the rest of us, we usually only buy it when there isn't another option, or to keep it around in our car when we find ourselves in places where water isn't readily available. This is also ignoring the fact that unless you live next to a fresh water source (something that only several thousands of people could say in this whole country), water is by no means "free". We either have to pay a water bill every month, or we pay for it via monthly condo fees. Best case scenario you can find a water fountain in a park or some institution which is subsidized by the owners - keyword being subsidized. In what universe is extracting and purifying water a free process? Even if it was entirely paid for and subsidized by the government, that's still coming out of your pocket via taxes.

Seriously, out of all of the metaphors you can think of, it really had to be water?

When I was a kid in the 1980s, bottled water was actually a form of luxury. Now a days, bottled water is a normal beverage. Back then, tap water was what we drank if we drank water.In fact, for most of us kids, it was from a hose on the side of the house. Between then and now, marketing departments have convinced everyone that the bottled water is safer and better than anything from a tap and that you are always dehydrated and need to drink.

So, this is not about a free thing, but about marketing something that you do not need to convince you that what you already have is not good enough and that you must switch.

Now, I am not suggesting that Via could make every train on the remote routes full,but, there are times of the year where people will flock to it if they know of it. Ask your friends if they know of the Budd car route in Canada. I'll bet none do. Locally in Sudbury, they might, but only as a passing thing. Many who I spoke of it could not even name the company that operates it. That is a failure of Via's marketing department.

 

[ARG1]

When I was a kid in the 1980s, bottled water was actually a form of luxury. Now a days, bottled water is a normal beverage. Back then, tap water was what we drank if we drank water.In fact, for most of us kids, it was from a hose on the side of the house. Between then and now, marketing departments have convinced everyone that the bottled water is safer and better than anything from a tap and that you are always dehydrated and need to drink.

Ok but, tap water isn't, and never has been free.

So, this is not about a free thing, but about marketing something that you do not need to convince you that what you already have is not good enough and that you must switch.

The problem is still you're comparing a product that is the necessity for your survival vs a damn train.

I'm not going to respond to any reply you make here, please just stop.