Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

[micheal_can]

Ok but, tap water isn't, and never has been free.

Tap water is practically free if you compare it to how much it would cost to fill a typical bottle they sell water in.

The problem is still you're comparing a product that is the necessity for your survival vs a damn train.

I am showing how a company has marketed something we can buy for less than pennies for the same amount.

I'm not going to respond to any reply you make here, please just stop.

Your choice.

 

[lenaitch]

Several full buses a day will be needed.

With a substantial component of end-to-end passengers. Again, research would be needed since currently, TBay to Sudbury is two separate bus runs. My experience when living up there was the 'cut-off' was around White River. Everybody from there and south went to SSM for medical, shopping, etc. and everybody west of there went to TBay. It had a lot to do with hospital affiliations for doctors, where businesses would deliver to or send services techs (still in the days of Sears and long before the likes of Amazon), etc. The only outlier to that is the nearest regional cancer centre for Algoma is in Sudbury. Otherwise, there was no need to travel to the far distance cities unless you had family there. Of course, the current CPKC-based service does nothing to service to service people in the Algoma-Manitoulin-Sudbury triangle.

 

[micheal_can]

With a substantial component of end-to-end passengers. Again, research would be needed since currently, TBay to Sudbury is two separate bus runs. My experience when living up there was the 'cut-off' was around White River. Everybody from there and south went to SSM for medical, shopping, etc. and everybody west of there went to TBay. It had a lot to do with hospital affiliations for doctors, where businesses would deliver to or send services techs (still in the days of Sears and long before the likes of Amazon), etc. The only outlier to that is the nearest regional cancer centre for Algoma is in Sudbury. Otherwise, there was no need to travel to the far distance cities unless you had family there. Of course, the current CPKC-based service does nothing to service to service people in the Algoma-Manitoulin-Sudbury triangle.

Having those bus routes separate is good for building demand for a train. Back many pages, I learned from ONR staff at their public meetings that 4 buses a day is needed to support a train. So, having a slow roll out would be realistic.

Medical things are separated into NE and NW and in general, you are going to either Thunder Bay or Sudbury for specialists. For example, people in Timmins who are having heart operations are coming to Sudbury. I guess a question about whether the money should be spent on the regional hospitals or on regional rail transportation could be asked. I think the train is cheaper, but spending the money on making each major hospital better would be a good thing too.

Having a train along the HCR/OVR would connect much of the NE population centres. With the closure of the Domtar Pulp and Paper mill, the HCR is hanging on by a thread. Maybe this is the time that the ONR buys the line and instead of giving money to the company to maintain it, they do it themselves.

The interesting thing about extending the route beyond SSM would place it in direct competition with the Agawa Canyon Tourist Train. It would also require some fancy work to ensure that both trains can be at the canyon and it be safe for passengers, and that the one train can continue on. I think there is a 3rd siding that can be used, but it still would need something for safety.

 

[lenaitch]

Having those bus routes separate is good for building demand for a train. Back many pages, I learned from ONR staff at their public meetings that 4 buses a day is needed to support a train. So, having a slow roll out would be realistic.

That might be an internal metric used by the ONTC (which I have only heard from you - I wasn't mentioned in the Northlander business case) but the reality is there could be 10 buses per day between two point but the only way a train will happen is if the government says so and funds it.

Having a train along the HCR/OVR would connect much of the NE population centres. With the closure of the Domtar Pulp and Paper mill, the HCR is hanging on by a thread. Maybe this is the time that the ONR buys the line and instead of giving money to the company to maintain it, they do it themselves.

As above, the ONR buys what the government says they can buy, and that would largely depend on whether the government wants to own a money loosing route (or at least rent - I believe it is still owned by CPKC). Freight traffic from the Soo could either go down through the States or, with a re-established diamond, up to CN at Oba.

The interesting thing about extending the route beyond SSM would place it in direct competition with the Agawa Canyon Tourist Train. It would also require some fancy work to ensure that both trains can be at the canyon and it be safe for passengers, and that the one train can continue on. I think there is a 3rd siding that can be used, but it still would need something for safety.

The Agawa Canyon train is a tourist train, not a passenger train between two points. Back when there there was actual traffic on the route, they regularly dealt with other traffic while the train was sitting in the canyon. It's not like it a high speed route.

 

[micheal_can]

That might be an internal metric used by the ONTC (which I have only heard from you - I wasn't mentioned in the Northlander business case) but the reality is there could be 10 buses per day between two point but the only way a train will happen is if the government says so and funds it.

AFAIK, it is not released anywhere, which does make sense. And, yes, it is only if the government decides to fund it will it be funded.

As above, the ONR buys what the government says they can buy, and that would largely depend on whether the government wants to own a money loosing route (or at least rent - I believe it is still owned by CPKC). Freight traffic from the Soo could either go down through the States or, with a re-established diamond, up to CN at Oba.

It is still owned by CPKC. And, I agree that it also is dependent on the government wanting to spend the money to do it. However, if every few years they give them money, why not own it and collect the money from the freight, and maybe even find a way to add freight to it?

The Agawa Canyon train is a tourist train, not a passenger train between two points. Back when there there was actual traffic on the route, they regularly dealt with other traffic while the train was sitting in the canyon. It's not like it a high speed route.

I realize that. I know it is probably nothing of any concern, but it is something to think about if anything ever were to happen.

 

[lenaitch]

and collect the money from the freight, and maybe even find a way to add freight to it

If there was money to be made from freight the line wouldn't be in constant trouble (admittedly, the government doesn't have to show a profit). I don't know if there is much potential to grow the business. Without Domtar (and Eacom in Nairn Centre), it's a long 250 km of right of way to maintain until you get to SSM. No manufacturing, timber or mining. Ontario Trap Rock in Bruce Mines ships by boat to their US market.

 

[micheal_can]

If there was money to be made from freight the line wouldn't be in constant trouble (admittedly, the government doesn't have to show a profit). I don't know if there is much potential to grow the business. Without Domtar (and Eacom in Nairn Centre), it's a long 250 km of right of way to maintain until you get to SSM. No manufacturing, timber or mining. Ontario Trap Rock in Bruce Mines ships by boat to their US market.

I am not talking of existing customers, but the potential of any new customers.With the RoF having their ore dealt with in SSM (and likely coming on the ACR) if there is a want or need for other industries to support it, and if it needs rail access, this line could be used. Or it becomes another abandoned line.

 

[ssiguy2]

The only spot outside the Windsor/Quebec City corridor where HSR is possible is CGY/RD/EDM & there is some interesting news out. Tlgo {letter before B isn't working} just introduced it's first high speed hydrogen trins with speeds up to 300km/hr. Still in testing but very promising with the proto-type now completed.

Such vehicles likely won't be used on The Corridor but I could see Smith doing it. The CGY/BF line is to be hydrogen & she wnts HSR between CGY/EDM too. This would work well with her desire to show off hydrogen's possibilities which is good for the province. It would be much cheeper & quicker to build then electric. If successful it could be considered for Wind/QC.

 

[micheal_can]

The only spot outside the Windsor/Quebec City corridor where HSR is possible is CGY/RD/EDM & there is some interesting news out. Tlgo {letter before B isn't working} just introduced it's first high speed hydrogen trins with speedsup to 300km/hr. Still in testing but very promising with the proto-type now completed.

Such vehicles likely won't be used on The Corridor but I could see Smith doing it. The CGY/BF line is to be hydrogen & she wnts HSR between CGY/EDM too. This would work well with her desire to show off hydrogen's possibilities which is good for the province. It would be much cheeper & quicker to build then electric which is more politiclly pltble.

Do you have a link for the prototype so that we can read up on it?

 

[Urban Sky]

Why I’m rather skeptical about hydrogen trains (especially the HSR variant, which would require particularly high charges and long ranges):

 

[micheal_can]

Why I’m rather skeptical about hydrogen trains (especially the HSR variant):
View attachment 605936

I am with you on this,but before I poo poo it,I would rather have the information first. Also,if a government I do not like does something I do not like, but that may push the agenda I do like further, then I am ok with it. For instance, I am too young to have witnessed the Turbo train, but it was a valiant effort. Because of my engineering background,I know why it was doomed to failure. So, do all the work for a train that won't work as planned. Then replace it with one that will. Win win. An even bigger win is if it does actually work, and work well. Then we can look elsewhere for where that technology may be suitable.

 

[roger1818]

Why I’m rather skeptical about hydrogen trains (especially the HSR variant, which would require particularly high charges and long ranges):
View attachment 605936

And that chart is for automobiles, which are relatively small, light and slow compared to HSR. Fluid friction is proportional to the square of the velocity, so a train traveling at 300km/h will encounter 4 times the friction (and thus require 4 time the power to maintain its speed, ignoring acceleration) than the same train traveling 150 km/h. That means you would need to store at about 4 times as much hydrogen (depending how much is used for acceleration verses cruising). While hydrogen has a very good specific energy (energy per unit mass), it has very poor energy density (energy per unit volume). As a result, a significant amount of the train will be taken up with hydrogen tanks and tanks designed to contain hydrogen are very heavy.

 

[micheal_can]

And that chart is for automobiles, which are relatively small, light and slow compared to HSR. Fluid friction is proportional to the square of the velocity, so a train traveling at 300km/h will encounter 4 times the friction (and thus require 4 time the power to maintain its speed, ignoring acceleration) than the same train traveling 150 km/h. That means you would need to store at about 4 times as much hydrogen (depending how much is used for acceleration verses cruising). While hydrogen has a very good specific energy (energy per unit mass), it has very poor energy density (energy per unit volume). As a result, a significant amount of the train will be taken up with hydrogen tanks and tanks designed to contain hydrogen are very heavy.

If you take the existing new Via fleet and swap them out with a similar passenger number train, how much bigger to go the same distance as the existing diesel tanks on them? Are we talking another car length, or much more, or much less?

 

[roger1818]

If you take the existing new Via fleet and swap them out with a similar passenger number train, how much bigger to go the same distance as the existing diesel tanks on them? Are we talking another car length, or much more, or much less?

First of all, VIA doesn't operate HSR. In fact, I am unaware of any HSR lines that use diesel fuel, likely because of the significant increase in fuel required. They not only save weight by not having to carry the fuel, but they also don't occur the expense of buying all that fuel (electricity is much cheaper, especially when you consider the improved efficacy of an electric locomotive).

But, to answer the question, using some back of the napkin math, the energy density (energy per unit volume) of hydrogen varies depending how you store it (liquified or the pressure if compressed), but assuming compressed at 681 atm, 69 MPa, 25 °C hydrogen has an energy density of 5.323 MJ/L (HHV), which is less than 1/7 that of diesel (38.6 MJ/L). VIA's SCV-42 locomotives have a 8,320 L fuel tank, so for the same amount of energy, the tank would need to be 60,000 L which is 60 m³. A Fuel cell is about twice as efficient as a diesel generator, so in reality you would only need 30 m³ of Hydrogen. Assuming a tank that has a 1m inside diameter (0.5m radius), the tank would need to be about 38 m long. Venture coaches are 25.9 m long, so that means the fuel tank would need to occupy about 1.5 coaches to have the same range. For HSR, one would need to almost quadruple that, so probably 5 or 6 coaches.

 

[micheal_can]

First of all, VIA doesn't operate HSR. In fact, I am unaware of any HSR lines that use diesel fuel, likely because of the significant increase in fuel required. They not only save weight by not having to carry the fuel, but they also don't occur the expense of buying all that fuel (electricity is much cheaper, especially when you consider the improved efficacy of an electric locomotive).

But, to answer the question, using some back of the napkin math, the energy density (energy per unit volume) of hydrogen varies depending how you store it (liquified or the pressure if compressed), but assuming compressed at 681 atm, 69 MPa, 25 °C hydrogen has an energy density of 5.323 MJ/L (HHV), which is less than 1/7 that of diesel (38.6 MJ/L). VIA's SCV-42 locomotives have a 8,320 L fuel tank, so for the same amount of energy, the tank would need to be 60,000 L which is 60 m³. A Fuel cell is about twice as efficient as a diesel generator, so in reality you would only need 30 m³ of Hydrogen. Assuming a tank that has a 1m inside diameter (0.5m radius), the tank would need to be about 38 m long. Venture coaches are 25.9 m long, so that means the fuel tank would need to occupy about 1.5 coaches to have the same range. For HSR, one would need to almost quadruple that, so probably 5 or 6 coaches.

Thank you for that napkin math. I know modern HSR is electric of some sort. The comparison helps understand the restrictions.