PShells
New Member
I didn't know if the 15-minute service on the Stouffville line "consumed" too much of the 3rd and 4th tracks for the LSE to run an express on top of 15-minute service plus VIA.
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GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
kaptrice
New Member
The disappointment always seemed like it was over the death of the nice true 6-track arrangement with the good cross-platform transfers at East Harbour. Is it a game of telephone that's morphed it into a service-prohibitive thing?
crs1026
Superstar
I racked my brain and hunted my files in search of the questionable bridge de-scoping document that I remembered, without success - but I did recall a little more clearly how I noticed it. I believe it may be in some report sent to someone (Toronto City Council? A subcommittee? Community Council?) dealing with an adjacent property (possibly expropriation or land severance) and a drawing was attached which showed only a 2-track structure where the previous plans had been 3 or more. I'm not going to look further, either it is gone or I have more vivid nightmares than I realise 
. But from my best recollections I do believe it related to the LSE plans east of Guildwood.
In any event - earlier documentation re the LSE track expansion clearly specified that the LSE grade separations would be built to hold 3 tracks with protection for a fourth track. The entire project has been deferred and descoped, and much of the original documentation has been scrubbed from the ML and IO web sites. Most recently, a City of Toronto report indicates that ML has provided the City with a 60% design for these grade separations. I do not have any means to pry this out of the City, likely would take a FOI request which is beyond my means. The point being - LSE is a pretty important part of the GO Expansion project, and it's a poor place to pinch pennies, if in fact that is happening.
As to the Scarborough flyover - this has been well discussed here previously. A flat junction cannot route trains to and from the two branching routes (LSE and Stouffville) without causing a great deal of routing conflicts. Routing conflicts are not just a single-point thing, because the approach zones (whether fixed or virtual blocks) lead to other trains receiving restrictive signal indications from the time the crossover route is lined until the crossing-over train has cleared. So trains at a distance will be slowed whenever there is a routing conflict. ML will have done the math thru simulations etc on how frequent this will happen and how much disruption there will be. But as a spectator, my layperson's guesstimate would be...... lots. I would have considered the flyover a very prudent investment. But we will see eventually.
So, if I have been crying wolf - I apologise. But I for one will be watching this one.
- Paul
. But from my best recollections I do believe it related to the LSE plans east of Guildwood.In any event - earlier documentation re the LSE track expansion clearly specified that the LSE grade separations would be built to hold 3 tracks with protection for a fourth track. The entire project has been deferred and descoped, and much of the original documentation has been scrubbed from the ML and IO web sites. Most recently, a City of Toronto report indicates that ML has provided the City with a 60% design for these grade separations. I do not have any means to pry this out of the City, likely would take a FOI request which is beyond my means. The point being - LSE is a pretty important part of the GO Expansion project, and it's a poor place to pinch pennies, if in fact that is happening.
As to the Scarborough flyover - this has been well discussed here previously. A flat junction cannot route trains to and from the two branching routes (LSE and Stouffville) without causing a great deal of routing conflicts. Routing conflicts are not just a single-point thing, because the approach zones (whether fixed or virtual blocks) lead to other trains receiving restrictive signal indications from the time the crossover route is lined until the crossing-over train has cleared. So trains at a distance will be slowed whenever there is a routing conflict. ML will have done the math thru simulations etc on how frequent this will happen and how much disruption there will be. But as a spectator, my layperson's guesstimate would be...... lots. I would have considered the flyover a very prudent investment. But we will see eventually.
So, if I have been crying wolf - I apologise. But I for one will be watching this one.
- Paul
Northern Light
Superstar
I racked my brain and hunted my files in search of the questionable bridge de-scoping document that I remembered, without success - but I did recall a little more clearly how I noticed it. I believe it may be in some report sent to someone (Toronto City Council? A subcommittee? Community Council?) dealing with an adjacent property (possibly expropriation or land severance) and a drawing was attached which showed only a 2-track structure where the previous plans had been 3 or more. I'm not going to look further, either it is gone or I have more vivid nightmares than I realise
In any event - earlier documentation re the LSE track expansion clearly specified that the LSE grade separations would be built to hold 3 tracks with protection for a fourth track. The entire project has been deferred and descoped, and much of the original documentation has been scrubbed from the ML and IO web sites. Most recently, a City of Toronto report indicates that ML has provided the City with a 60% design for these grade separations. I do not have any means to pry this out of the City, likely would take a FOI request which is beyond my means. The point being - LSE is a pretty important part of the GO Expansion project, and it's a poor place to pinch pennies, if in fact that is happening.
As to the Scarborough flyover - this has been well discussed here previously. A flat junction cannot route trains to and from the two branching routes (LSE and Stouffville) without causing a great deal of routing conflicts. Routing conflicts are not just a single-point thing, because the approach zones (whether fixed or virtual blocks) lead to other trains receiving restrictive signal indications from the time the crossover route is lined until the crossing-over train has cleared. So trains at a distance will be slowed whenever there is a routing conflict. ML will have done the math thru simulations etc on how frequent this will happen and how much disruption there will be. But as a spectator, my layperson's guesstimate would be...... lots. I would have considered the flyover a very prudent investment. But we will see eventually.
So, if I have been crying wolf - I apologise. But I for one will be watching this one.
- Paul
I'm still working on what the scope looks like................but I did some digging on timing............
The GO Expansion Grade Separations for the Scarborough crossings of the LSE are currently programmed for 2026-2029.
smallspy
Senior Member
With the way the signalling system is currently configured on the Kingston Sub, they can run 90mph trains every 5 minutes or so.
That's enough capacity for the immediate future, but depending on which version of the plans they are going to be using they will start to bump into the limits of what the signalling system is currently capable of in several years.
Dan
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Bringing this old post forward since it's relevant:
The discussion relates to the lack of separation between express and local trains due to the elimination of the grade separation. Instead of one 4-track corridor, LSE will need to operate as two 2-track corridors. At the same time as the cancellation of the grade separation, Verster announced that all GO trains would stop at East Harbour, which reduces the speed differential between local and express GO trains. I don't think Metrolinx cares about the delays the change will cause to Via trains.
Eliminating the grade separation also eliminates the ability to spread traffic across all 4 tracks. With the new 'commercially astute' plan without a grade separation, there LSE tracks could be at 100% capacity while there's spare capacity available on the Stouffville pair, but there's no practical way for LSE trains to access the Stouffville tracks because that would create more at-grade conflicts, which would defeat the purpose.
The other consideration is the efficiency of platform utilization at Union. If the local trains are single-level EMUs with lots of doors like most S-bahn systems, then they can have much shorter dwells at Union than the longer-distance bilevel trains. So combining the Stouffville and LSE local trains onto a single pair of tracks allows a single pair of platforms at Union to serve a huge number of trains, which is very space-efficient. In the new 'commercially astute' plan, the local and express services are sharing platforms which means that you aren't necessarily able to take full advantage of the capacity unlocked by shorter dwell times on local trains.
The 3-track segment between Scarborough and Guildwood is about 11 minutes long, so if you assume that it alternates throughout the day, there's room for 4 express trains per hour, total (2 in each direction). Given that Via already operates about 1 train per hour per direction off-peak, that would only leave room for 1 express GO train per hour per direction. During the PM peak, Via operates 2 trains per hour in the peak direction so more likely the full overtaking capacity of the third track would be used in the peak direction for 2 additional GO express trains per hour with no counter-peak express service (and Via trains crawling along between local GO trains).
In total LSE off-peak service might be 4 tph GO local, 1 tph GO express, and 1tph Via. Which is only 1 tph more than we had in 2021. That would be a pretty sad outcome of the multi-billion dollar GO Expansion, but that's what would happen if they cancel the track expansions east of Scarborough Jct.
To achieve that with only a brief segment of triple track, you'd need to run all the trains with the same average speed (e.g. all local). Which would prevent us from achieving the promised travel times to outlying stations.
The discussion relates to the lack of separation between express and local trains due to the elimination of the grade separation. Instead of one 4-track corridor, LSE will need to operate as two 2-track corridors. At the same time as the cancellation of the grade separation, Verster announced that all GO trains would stop at East Harbour, which reduces the speed differential between local and express GO trains. I don't think Metrolinx cares about the delays the change will cause to Via trains.
Eliminating the grade separation also eliminates the ability to spread traffic across all 4 tracks. With the new 'commercially astute' plan without a grade separation, there LSE tracks could be at 100% capacity while there's spare capacity available on the Stouffville pair, but there's no practical way for LSE trains to access the Stouffville tracks because that would create more at-grade conflicts, which would defeat the purpose.
The other consideration is the efficiency of platform utilization at Union. If the local trains are single-level EMUs with lots of doors like most S-bahn systems, then they can have much shorter dwells at Union than the longer-distance bilevel trains. So combining the Stouffville and LSE local trains onto a single pair of tracks allows a single pair of platforms at Union to serve a huge number of trains, which is very space-efficient. In the new 'commercially astute' plan, the local and express services are sharing platforms which means that you aren't necessarily able to take full advantage of the capacity unlocked by shorter dwell times on local trains.
It depends how much express service you want on LSE. Due to the lack of grade separation, Stouffville will effectively monopolize the 3rd and 4th track, so LSE will only have 2 tracks between Union and Scarborough.
The 3-track segment between Scarborough and Guildwood is about 11 minutes long, so if you assume that it alternates throughout the day, there's room for 4 express trains per hour, total (2 in each direction). Given that Via already operates about 1 train per hour per direction off-peak, that would only leave room for 1 express GO train per hour per direction. During the PM peak, Via operates 2 trains per hour in the peak direction so more likely the full overtaking capacity of the third track would be used in the peak direction for 2 additional GO express trains per hour with no counter-peak express service (and Via trains crawling along between local GO trains).
In total LSE off-peak service might be 4 tph GO local, 1 tph GO express, and 1tph Via. Which is only 1 tph more than we had in 2021. That would be a pretty sad outcome of the multi-billion dollar GO Expansion, but that's what would happen if they cancel the track expansions east of Scarborough Jct.
To achieve that with only a brief segment of triple track, you'd need to run all the trains with the same average speed (e.g. all local). Which would prevent us from achieving the promised travel times to outlying stations.
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crs1026
Superstar
^ if one added a crossover from K1 to S2 at Scarboro Jct, and ran the Stouffville line left-hand running, one could interleave local westbound trains on S2 and make K1 express from there to Union.
- Paul
- Paul
nfitz
Superstar
It seems unlikely to me that they won't be cross-overs - that figure is misleading.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
It's only misleading if you assume that it's showing every single track connection, which it obviously isnt. It's a diagram of typical track assignments for express and local services, hence the legend.
dowlingm
Senior Member
I assume the track (right-most) with no platform at Scarb Junction is an accidental omission?
Allandale25
Senior Member
Breslau pictures posted today.
ash_iwn95
New Member
Question: with this and the potential completion of the new Guelph platform would this open up the possibility of Kitchener-Guelph round trip service even when the Kitchener line trains stop going west of Bramalea?
Metroscapes
Active Member
The new GO platform is not ready for use, because the track going to it is not tied in. Last I checked, things haven't changed from these pictures I took in July.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
No, my guess is thr Stouffville line will not stop at Scarborough jct
reaperexpress
Senior Member
It would, but it sounds like the west end of the Guelph platform isn't going to be connected to the mainline anytime soon.