GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[urbancog]

This nudged me to look at the timetable on their Woodbine Community Plan site (woodbinecommunityplan.com). I don't think this has been updated since the site was created. Still baffles me that they need 4 years to build a relatively simple, above ground, station.

Hopefully they can phase the construction to bring the southern platform and a bridge on stream before the rest of the station to enable closure of Etobicoke North and commissioning of the 401/409 tunnels.

 

[crs1026]

View attachment 631698
This nudged me to look at the timetable on their Woodbine Community Plan site (woodbinecommunityplan.com). I don't think this has been updated since the site was created. Still baffles me that they need 4 years to build a relatively simple, above ground, station.

Hopefully they can phase the construction to bring the southern platform and a bridge on stream before the rest of the station to enable closure of Etobicoke North and commissioning of the 401/409 tunnels.

This timeline gives a lot of room to ask what is going on.

If this was the original plan for the station timing, then the announcement by Ministers Yurek and Surman in 2019 was a farce.

If this was the original plan for ML to open the station, then the whole ML work plan to build the tunnels (and related work to create a fourth track on the Weston Sub) created a decade of financing charges on close to $90M in tunnel construction (plus possibly other things) that could have been deferred..... also a farce.

- Paul

 

[ProjectEnd]

This timeline gives a lot of room to ask what is going on.

If this was the original plan for the station timing, then the announcement by Ministers Yurek and Surman in 2019 was a farce.

If this was the original plan for ML to open the station, then the whole ML work plan to build the tunnels (and related work to create a fourth track on the Weston Sub) created a decade of financing charges on close to $90M in tunnel construction (plus possibly other things) that could have been deferred..... also a farce.

- Paul

The push to get the 401 tunnels completed when nothing else along the sub (even the *tunnel approach!?!?!*) was even remotely near getting started is mystifying. It only makes sense if they got an absolutely bargain basement cost from the constructor there (they didn't) and had to move at that time to secure the estimate.

It's absolute incompetence or, perhaps worse, apathy, on small things like this that further-reinforce my fundamental belief that we will never get HSR in this country. Unfortunately, due to a combination of factors, we're just not set up for it.

 

[SkylineHorizons]

View attachment 631698
This nudged me to look at the timetable on their Woodbine Community Plan site (woodbinecommunityplan.com). I don't think this has been updated since the site was created. Still baffles me that they need 4 years to build a relatively simple, above ground, station.

It has always taken them years to build a simple freaking station. Look at Mount Dennis, work started in 2020 and it's STILL not finished.

 

[smallspy]

It has always taken them years to build a simple freaking station. Look at Mount Dennis, work started in 2020 and it's STILL not finished.

That's not a great example. It was by no means a "simple freaking station" as it had to be built in the middle of an active rail corridor, and needed to have high-level platforms built where most are just a slab of asphalt on the ground alongside the tracks. Not only that, but the station was complete in 2023.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

The push to get the 401 tunnels completed when nothing else along the sub (even the *tunnel approach!?!?!*) was even remotely near getting started is mystifying. It only makes sense if they got an absolutely bargain basement cost from the constructor there (they didn't) and had to move at that time to secure the estimate.

It's absolute incompetence or, perhaps worse, apathy, on small things like this that further-reinforce my fundamental belief that we will never get HSR in this country. Unfortunately, due to a combination of factors, we're just not set up for it.

My theory is that their scope control and project prioritization is the weak link.... what's hard to figure out is whether this stems from political pressure, or internal lack of discipline.... probably a good deal of both.
This is why I am so emphatic about transparency and disclosure.... somebody has to hold ML's feet to the fire to explain their targets, and challenge when these shift. We don't actually know which of ML's many promises are actually being worked on.

- Paul

 

[SkylineHorizons]

That's not a great example. It was by no means a "simple freaking station" as it had to be built in the middle of an active rail corridor, and needed to have high-level platforms built where most are just a slab of asphalt on the ground alongside the tracks. Not only that, but the station was complete in 2023.

Dan

I'm pretty sure that the last time I passed through there, which was not that long ago, we had to call a foreman to get through, the entire platform was cordoned off, with workers visibly milling about, but maybe I just imagined that. I'm not sure why you're defending MX on this account Dan. The station may have been functionally complete in 2023, but it is clearly not fully finished. This pattern has repeated itself across many projects on this line(and others) i.e. the 401 tunnel, the Breslau siding, Guelph's south platform. All of these projects have faced huge delays and seemingly unnecessary work stoppages. And I for one, think MX should be held accountable for delays in project completion.

 

[smallspy]

I'm pretty sure that the last time I passed through there, which was not that long ago, we had to call a foreman to get through, the entire platform was cordoned off, with workers visibly milling about, but maybe I just imagined that. I'm not sure why you're defending MX on this account Dan. The station may have been functionally complete in 2023, but it is clearly not fully finished. This pattern has repeated itself across many projects on this line(and others) i.e. the 401 tunnel, the Breslau siding, Guelph's south platform. All of these projects have faced huge delays and seemingly unnecessary work stoppages. And I for one, think MX should be held accountable for delays in project completion.

There's no doubt that Metrolinx has screwed the proverbial pooch on many projects. I'll be the first to admit that.

But it also does you a disservice to make claims that aren't truthful. Metrolinx has lots of other legitimate cockups that you can choose from.

Dan

 

[SkylineHorizons]

What's untruthful? I'm speaking to the facts. The bottom line is the station is still not open 5+ years after construction started.

 

[smallspy]

What's untruthful? I'm speaking to the facts. The bottom line is the station is still not open 5+ years after construction started.

What's untruthful is calling it a "simple station" when it has been anything but. It took 3+ years to build because of the complexity of it's siting and design.

And while it may not be open yet, it's been finished for a year and a half. Metrolinx even made some preliminary moves towards opening it early last year before walking back from those plans. But I'm fairly certain that the design of the station - and how it is integrated with the Crosstown station underneath it - is what is preventing it from being opened now.

Dan

 

[reaperexpress]

Given that Mount Dennis station is complete I've wondered if it's worth opening it just for GO service. On one hand it would nice to be able to use the station that was built, but on the other hand the TTC's bus service redesign that creates Mt Dennis as a hub is contingent on Line 5 being operational. Until the bus service is redesigned and Line 5 opens, the station would have very limited utility yet would still add two minutes for all trains stopping there. There's no parking lot, not great bus connections, no rapid transit connection and not that much within walking distance.

So basically I'd be happy if it opened soon, but if they choose not to open it until Line 5 opens I could understand that decision.

 

[SkylineHorizons]

What's untruthful is calling it a "simple station" when it has been anything but. It took 3+ years to build because of the complexity of it's siting and design.

You misinterpreted what I was saying, though I suppose I could have phrased it better. I certainly would have had I’d known we'd still be talking about it. I wasn’t calling Mount Dennis a simple station relative to other stations; I was pointing out that it takes MX forever to build or reconstruct even a simple station, while other entities can complete massive projects in the same timeframe.

You say the project was "finished" last year. Personally, I don’t consider a project built for public use to be finished until it’s actually being used by the public. Anybody on here disagree??

You also mention that much of Mount Dennis's delay can be attributed to the Crosstown, the mother of all delayed projects, which only reinforces my point. But beyond that, the station should never have been designed in such a way that it couldn’t open without the Crosstown section being completed.

In any case, all this talk about Mount Dennis obscures the bigger issue - either a complete lack of project timelines or a failure to adhere to them, as Paul was saying. I’ve seen firsthand how construction projects across the board progresses in fits and starts, with multiple extended work stoppages. That was my lived experience, day in and day out, for over a decade when I was an engineer there - Among the running trades, it’s a running joke how long it takes them to build a station. We'd watch as entire 30-story condo towers would go up faster than it takes them to even rebuild a simple platform. Yes, I’m calling them simple again - because surface-level GO platforms are simple compared to more complex infrastructure projects. And you know something is rotten in Denmark when they can't even get the relatively simple stuff done in a timely manner.

 

[smallspy]

You misinterpreted what I was saying, though I suppose I could have phrased it better. I certainly would have had I’d known we'd still be talking about it. I wasn’t calling Mount Dennis a simple station relative to other stations; I was pointing out that it takes MX forever to build or reconstruct even a simple station, while other entities can complete massive projects in the same timeframe.

Fair enough. And no argument here.

You say the project was "finished" last year. Personally, I don’t consider a project built for public use to be finished until it’s actually being used by the public. Anybody on here disagree??

That's a valid point of you for you to have. I don't necessarily subscribe to it, and I'm sure the organizations in charge of it don't either.

You also mention that much of Mount Dennis's delay can be attributed to the Crosstown, the mother of all delayed projects, which only reinforces my point.

It doesn't, but anyways....

But beyond that, the station should never have been designed in such a way that it couldn’t open without the Crosstown section being completed.

That's fair. And also to be fair, the GO station was originally envisioned to open AFTER the Crosstown open, not at the same time.

But that's also a point that should have been made 20 years ago, when the station was originally being designed. Hindsight is 20-20, after all....

In any case, all this talk about Mount Dennis obscures the bigger issue - either a complete lack of project timelines or a failure to adhere to them, as Paul was saying. I’ve seen firsthand how construction projects across the board progresses in fits and starts, with multiple extended work stoppages. That was my lived experience, day in and day out, for over a decade when I was an engineer there - Among the running trades, it’s a running joke how long it takes them to build a station. We'd watch as entire 30-story condo towers would go up faster than it takes them to even rebuild a simple platform. Yes, I’m calling them simple again - because surface-level GO platforms are simple compared to more complex infrastructure projects. And you know something is rotten in Denmark when they can't even get the relatively simple stuff done in a timely manner.

As an engineer, then you should especially have been aware that not everything is as simple as it seems at first blush in construction. And that goes double for working in an active rail corridor.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

You say the project was "finished" last year. Personally, I don’t consider a project built for public use to be finished until it’s actually being used by the public. Anybody on here disagree??

As a sidewalk supervisor, I would even question whether the station is at turn-the-key-and-open readiness. The last few times i have gone by on UP, it appeared that there was still construction material and debris on the platforms, and occasionally one or two workers doing tweaks (have the light bulbs started to burn out already?)

Possibly that last bit of cleanup has been left unfinished because in the absence of an opening date it doesn’t matter….But the culture at ML suffers when the sense of urgency is lost.

Any business school textbook will tell you that an organizational culture that does not openly admit its problems and missteps will have a great deal of difficulty correcting same or improving its performance. It’s abundantly clear - and I hear lots of stories - that ML has normalised a culture of accepting (and even assuming) delay and non-delivery.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

As a sidewalk supervisor, I would even question whether the station is at turn-the-key-and-open readiness. The last few times i have gone by on UP, it appeared that there was still construction material and debris on the platforms, and occasionally one or two workers doing tweaks (have the light bulbs started to burn out already?)

Possibly that last bit of cleanup has been left unfinished because in the absence of an opening date it doesn’t matter….But the culture at ML suffers when the sense of urgency is lost.

Any business school textbook will tell you that an organizational culture that does not openly admit its
Problems and missteps will have a great deal of difficulty correcting same or improving its performance. It’s abundantly clear - and I hear lots of stories - that ML has normalised a culture of accepting (and even assuming) delay and non-delivery.

- Paul

It was seriously contemplated that the station would be opened for service in April of last year - to the point that schedules were drawn up for it. So yeah, while there may be little bits of work still being done here and there, that doesn't mean that they couldn't have also been doing that same work with the station fully open to the public, either.

Dan