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Fate of the SRT

What do you believe should be done about the SRT?


  • Total voters
    190
And here's why we won't get a subway:

You can blame Bombardier for the 2006 study, they were apparently throwing bribe money around like nobody's business (oh, I'm sorry, it wasn't bribery, they prefer to call it lobbying). The additional half-billion would not be re-couped by property value increases, as you are only talking about one station around which you'll see increasing property values. Kennedy and STC won't see any change because they already have hub status. A relocated Lawrence East is also going to have limited ability to increase values since it is in the Highland Creek area (protected).

The extension isn't warranted because the transfers are avoidable transfers from an extension of the SRT as LRT to Malvern. See, this is why your arguments fall apart, you are thinking of STC in isolation from the rest of the network. It doesn't work that way. If the SRT is coverted to LRT and extended to Malvern, as is proposed, transfers will go down substantially. This is even more true if it runs through on Eglinton. So you see, you actually get a better result by making it LRT than subway. Also, to try and say that "this would improve the lives of EVERY Scarberian" is blatant hyperbole if not an outright lie. There are more people in Scarborough that don't go to STC than those that do. Kennedy is proof, check its ridership figure (it's almost 3 times that of STC's). Combine that with GO Train Lakeshore East ridership as well. Your argument there is a loaded argument, it holds no water.

It is pointless to say that there will far fewer transfers from an STC extension when you think about the context from an interlined LRT network perspective. Scarborough's coverage by LRT is going to be fantastic and will, at least in theory, allow any LRT service point in Scarborough to get to the subway without transferring. That subway may be Kennedy, or it may be Finch, or it may be Yonge-Eglinton, nobody knows yet because the network plan is still being tweaked, but the potential is obvious, and it is clearly superior to a subway extension that would accomplish little beyond moving the major transfer node to a different location.

The same reason that we should never have built Sheppard as a subway. Sheppard should have been LRT from day one. And it's the same story for Scarborough. The load is going to end up being divided and dispersed by the time all of the network is up and running, particularly with the Seaton GO line if it is actually implemented. You don't understand what the ridership capabilities are of each mode, nor do you understand what the network dynamics can actually lead to. Everything about Sheppard LRT to STC, LRT to UTSC, even LRT to almost the Zoo, all that is already coming. We don't need a subway to STC to make that happen, and there's no point in sucking a half-billion dollars of funds away from other projects to make a STC subway happen. It isn't worth it. Your property values argument is too weak (Scarborough isn't Forest Hill, and that means it can only generate so much money through property values).


You're still not getting it. Malvernites like you will avoid transferring at STC instead of Kennedy; That's the point! This is why I challenge you to think from a network perspective for once. The SRT as LRT will go all the way to Malvern and take you to Kennedy in one seat. You won't have to transfer at STC anymore. STC's ridership will plummet since it no longer needs to be a major transfer spot for all the Malvernites that use it currently (which is 1/3rd of the ridership). Other LRT lines could also interline, from say Sheppard/Meadowvale for example, to Kennedy in one seat as well.

While I agree that Midland and Ellesmere have low value, what I am acknowledging is that there are policies that have to be worked with, and you have to acknowledge that, too, because we don't have the power to change them, and frankly, we don't want them to change because we'd set a precedent which would see service reductions run rampant across the city as a result. The existing policy is good at protecting existing service, so we should look at its benefit instead of its negative tradeoffs. This actually isn't TTC corporate idealogy, this was a political decision by Councillors, and I agree with it, despite the above mentioned shortcoming. It does more good than harm.




The reason is the same as Transit City's reason; it falls short of the 10,000pphpd threshold. The demand is about the same as that expected for the Eglinton LRT, which is around 7,000 or so (the SRT's is 6,400). So the BCA actually wasn't supposed to consider subway, because there is no point as it fails the first test. The BCA has other flaws, but ignoring subway isn't one of them. The York Region subway BCAs were flawed in that they never considered LRT (it was just BRT or Subway, which is retarded since LRT has easily double the capacity of BRT (unless said BRT is a total pig on space (space that generally doesn't exist, except in Ottawa))). You can scream until you're blue in the face, but there is no good reason for a subway to STC at this time, as the alternatives are superior.

As long as there are those who will accept the city's half-assed analysis, Scarborough Centre will never get its subway.
 
I think people would rather transfer at STC than Kennedy. I think the sooner one gets on a subway seat, the better.
 
If people want to get to downtown Toronto fast from Scarborough, most would want to use the GO train. If people want to get there cheap, then its the TTC, but with less transfers, if possible.
So if the SRT is replaced with an LRT, it could become a continuous trip via Eglinton, and them then transferring only once at Eglinton instead of Bloor.
 
If people want to get to downtown Toronto fast from Scarborough, most would want to use the GO train. If people want to get there cheap, then its the TTC, but with less transfers, if possible.
So if the SRT is replaced with an LRT, it could become a continuous trip via Eglinton, and them then transferring only once at Eglinton instead of Bloor.

Unless somebody has a destination on Eglinton, there is no way somebody is going to use the S/LRT and Eglinton LRT as a crosstown route. And most from Scarborough would not want that anyway.
 
The counters to Railization's arguments and the city's codswallop:

1) Land values will increase. Currently the most dense area on the SRT is at Scarborough Town Centre. Adding a subway stop there would increase the radius on which the station acts to 800m from the current 600. Given the distance of Midland and it's mostly industrial nature not much is being given up in land values. And given McCowan's distance from STC...there are only a handful of buildings that would see their value drop. And even that's questionable since LRT would be going down Progress countering the biggest drop in value there. Arguably, the only destination to loose out would be Ellesemere.

2) Transfers. Most people have obviously never been to Malvern. S/LRT to Malvern won't save a transfer for most Malvernites. Most will be taking a bus to MTC to get on the S/LRT earlier and then getting off at Kennedy. There's going to be some riders who'll walk to the station, but not as many as the TTC would like to believe. And that's why the TTC also plans on building a bus hub there. The worst of this is that many folks will keep taking buses like Morningside because they want to avoid the transfer. And some might even take buses to Town Centre if the TTC starts short-turning LRTs as speculated. Despite all this, the TTC will prefer to make both Malvernites and other Scarberians suffer by transferring at Kennedy instead of STC.

3) The load being divided. Funny how that never comes up for other lines. If that's the case why not skip the Yonge extension and pour that money into GO lines heading north. The authorities conveniently use this excuse every time they want to skimp out on something. Moreover, at this stage the Seaton Go line is all speculation. Yet we are going to undertake this S/LRT extension on the promise of a line that may or may not come over a decade down the road.

4) Ridership. The TTC regularly ignores how much ridership consolidation of the stations on the corridor would bring. And Metrolinx regularly ignore the fact that that STC is set to become a mini-hub for GO with two Metrolinx GO lines being put in place. Yet, the trunk line out is going to be LRT. In fact, Scarborough Centre is left as the only 416 urban growth centre without a subway to support it.

The worst of all this is that the TTC and Metrolinx won't even commit to an honest study taking these kinds of complaints into account. I think they know the answer would not be easily defensible.
 
So where's the Facebook group to finish Danforth and Sheppard to STC? I think it's a logical endpoint for both lines.

The DRL may be gaining steam, but I think the network as a whole would benefit from STC becoming a hub for two subway lines. Especially if westbound Sheppard trains continued on to Downsview and followed the Spadina extension to York U
 
I hope some developer buys up some land around Kennedy and proposes giant buildings. When the city counters that Scarborough Centre is the place to locate such a building they can argue that the best transit in Scarborough is at Kennedy.
 
Moved from DRL alignment thread

There is no point in extending the subway to just another transfer point when the existing transfer point is going to be dramatically shifted by the Malvern extension anyway. There is no logic in ending the Danforth at STC, and in fact is inferior to the LRT option since as a subway there'll still be at least 2 transfers to get downtown from Malvern (1/3rd of the STC ridership), whereas the LRT option for the SRT, routed through on Eglinton LRT, would get people from Malvern to downtown with a single transfer. This warped mindset that all trips start and end at STC is ridiculous. There's a lot more Scarborough than just STC.

Sure, but there's also more to Scarborough than Malvern. It makes no sense to give a one-seat ride to Malvernites (and I say this as someone who grew up in the neighbourhood) while forcing 2/3rds of the riders from the North-East to transfer twice. Ask anybody in Malvern. They would rather have a bus to a STC subway than a bus to MTC to a LRT/RT to STC to a subway at Kennedy. I wish people would actually travel to Malvern to understand the travel patterns. Even if the LRT goes to Malvern Town Centre, most of Malvern will be bussing to MTC, to catch the LRT. There will be no change in the number of transfer for all but a few residents who live in the handful of buildings around MTC. Nobody from Morningside Heights, Empringham, old finch, Littles, etc. are going to be walking to MTC. They are gonna be taking a bus there. In fact, because of that transfer many Malvernites might still stick with the buses that go straight to Kennedy such as the Morningside bus. Morningside bus takes about 35 mins to Kennedy from Morningside Heights. The bus to Malvern and the transfer to the LRT will take at least 10 mins. This means that the ride to Kennedy has to be 25 mins or less from Malvern including stops to be really beneficial. That's cutting it close. And if they decide to use the Neilson-Sheppard-McCowan alignment instead of the Progress-Hydro Corridor alignment to get to STC, the Morningside bus is gonna start to look far more appealing again. That's just one example. And if you wanna go to STC (a major destination for a lot of Malvernites) who would wanna take a bus and transfer to a LRT just to go to a place 10 mins away.

And if you really want to be fair, McCowan and Midland ridership should be taken into account too. All those folks would be jumping on the subway a lot earlier were it to be extended. I will submit that there is utility at extending the LRT/RT to Malvern but it should not be a zero sum equation that costs the rest of the over 80% of riders along the SRT improved service. In my books, the best solution would be subway to STC and LRT to Malvern.
 
I am part of the 2/3rd ridership that enters STC outside of Malvern. It would make sense for a resident living in the Agincourt / Milliken area to bus it, for approximately 12-15 min to STC , then to go to MTC.

The subway terminating at STC seems to make more sense to capture more people transfering from buses, which outside of actual data, does so more than Kennedy Station.

Relating to an earlier point that was mentioned, as STC is a designated growth centre, we can expect more towers = more residents in the area, it doesn't make sense then in this case for future residents to get on STC then transfer again at Kennedy to get to downtown.
 
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So now that Metrolinx is being reformed with professionals, anybody think there's a chance that the SRT replacement might again be open for discussion?
 
The Province just announced funding for the refurbishment of the RT, and extension to Malvern Town Centre, or Markham Rd.

Construction to start asap!
 
Is it possible to connect the RT to the Eglington Crosstown at Kennedy?

Will they use the same technology on both?
First answer depends on the second, which hasn't been announced. Indeed, the SRT part of the announcement refers to a "technology choice" that has to be made.

Metrolinx has been looking at this possibility and the vagueness in today's announcement makes it sound as if they are still doing so.
 
Unless things changes, the SRT will be converted to LRT finally.

The extension north is supposed to be underground.

I prefer to see the SRT converted to subway to do away with transfers and allowing one ride and room for increase of ridership.
 

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