Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[ssiguy2]

The "Golden Mile" will never be a pedestrian area and there is nothing wrong with that.
Miller types who think that if you put in an streetcar line the street will become another Bloor are having dreams of grandeur. Industrial and commercial areas are just as much a part of the urban fabric as are pedestrian friendly streets. People have to work, get gas, buy the car, go to mall, go to Home Depot and all the rest of it and newsflash............they have just as many mundane commercial stripes in Paris as they do in Toronto. Not everyone in Europe works at a cafe or chichi hotel. Where not under pedestrian friendly areas all lines should be elevated. People don't go to these areas. or ugly concrete tower strip for that matter, due to the ambience. They do it to get to work and back and they want to get there yesterday. Speed is essential and in these areas the streetcars don't cut the mustard and for the price of TC the return on investment is low.

 

[Eug]

If you can look out the window and see that you're flying by cars who are stuck in traffic, the psychological effect is that transit > car, because transit gets you from point A to point B faster than those schmucks stuck in traffic below me. Elevation gives a sense of importance and priority that you don't get with most other forms of transit.

I can't tell if you're being serious, or are just pulling our collective legs.

 

[gweed123]

I can't tell if you're being serious, or are just pulling our collective legs.

I'm being serious. There's a psychological effect that comes from being 'above' others, both physically and figuratively. If you're travelling at the same level as traffic, there's a sense that you're on par with it. If you're travelling below traffic (subway), you have no idea how fast you're going compared to the cars above you. But if you're able to see the cars below you, you have an immediate sense of "yeah, I'm going way faster than if I would have driven". It also makes the people who are driving think "wow, I've seen 3 trains go by on the elevated tracks, and I'm still stuck on the same block, maybe I'll try transit next time".

 

[sixrings]

That doesnt work for the Cars on the QEW who watch the Go train go by everyday.... Or even worse how many subway cars pass someone waiting in the south bound lane of the allen trying to turn...

 

[Voltz]

That doesnt work for the Cars on the QEW who watch the Go train go by everyday.... Or even worse how many subway cars pass someone waiting in the south bound lane of the allen trying to turn...

Well obviously that is due to the trains not being elevated above the level of traffic, there is no physiological effect of transit being 'above' or better than cars, or some other nonsense argument that tries to support elevated lines.

 

[sixrings]

The cost of driving will eventually get people out of cars. Why dont we just Toll the roads by GPS or gas Tax? Then we would have more people per bus per street car per subway. If enough people used transit sure the systme would have to grow but it would also create more profitable routes.

 

[gweed123]

That doesnt work for the Cars on the QEW who watch the Go train go by everyday.... Or even worse how many subway cars pass someone waiting in the south bound lane of the allen trying to turn...

Well considering that GO is experiencing record high ridership, especially on the Lakeshore line, I'd say it is...

 

[Northern Magus]

That doesnt work for the Cars on the QEW who watch the Go train go by everyday.... Or even worse how many subway cars pass someone waiting in the south bound lane of the allen trying to turn...

Yep, and it's hardly the first time he's tried to pass off his personal conjecture as an empirical fact.

Usually he does it in the form of "I think X, and if you don't disprove it right now then it's true"

If someone can't make an argument without resorting to non-stop fallacies, it's always an implicit confession that their conclusions are unsound and unfounded.

 

[Northern Magus]

Well considering that GO is experiencing record high ridership, especially on the Lakeshore line, I'd say it is...

See? Confusing correlation with causation.

 

[gweed123]

Yep, and it's hardly the first time he's tried to pass off his personal conjecture as an empirical fact.

Usually he does it in the form of "I think X, and if you don't disprove it right now then it's true"

If someone can't make an argument without resorting to non-stop fallacies, it's always an implicit confession that their conclusions are unsound and unfounded.

Umm no. Usually what I do is a generate a hypothesis, state my reasoning for why I think what I think, and then let others present their views (or bring other facts to light) to either support or refute it.

In this case, my hypothesis was that elevated transit has a psychological effect on both passengers and motorits that places a greater prominance on transit. For the passenger, the effect is that because they can see how much faster they are travelling than the cars beneath them, that it reinforces the idea that they are saving time by taking transit. For the driver, it may make them question whether or not they want to try taking transit, because it may indeed get them where they want to go, quicker.

As for the traffic on the QEW (actually, it's the Gardiner, because at no point along the QEW route is the Lakeshore GO line directly adjacent to the roadway. In fact, there are only a couple points along the route where the line is even visible from the QEW, but that's beside the point), I do believe that it has somewhat of an effect, at least for those who are taking transit. I myself have taken the GO train out during rush hour, and sat there and smirked "ha, look at those suckers stuck in traffic". I would imagine I'm not the only one who thinks that. Seeing that scenario reinforces the idea that taking transit is good, and that you are saving time by doing so.

And at least I'm offering up ideas and thoughts, instead of having every 2nd post I make accusing people of creating straw men and logical fallacies. Seriously, I have seen 3 posts from you today, and all 3 offer up very little (if anything) in the way of contributing to the debate, but go on and on about how other people are creating straw men arguments. Give it a rest. If you don't like the way I present my hypotheses, then don't reply to them.

 

[Northern Magus]

Umm no. Usually what I do is a generate a hypothesis, state my reasoning for why I think what I think, and then let others present their views (or bring other facts to light) to either support or refute it.

And at least I'm offering up ideas and thoughts, instead of having every 2nd post I make accusing people of creating straw men and logical fallacies. [...] If you don't like the way I present my hypotheses, then don't reply to them.

Yawn. And I'm sure you don't think of yourself as obsessed, bloviating and disingenuous either.

Man up and stop mewling like a little crybaby. If you're too thin-skinned to handle legitimate criticism or learn how to argue properly, go start a blog. Someone so utterly dependant on straw men, appeals to ignorance, and unsubstantiated conjecture clearly has nothing of value to add to this thread, or any other.

So if you keep spewing garbage, don't be surprised when someone cleans it up.

 

[EnviroTO]

In this case, my hypothesis was that elevated transit has a psychological effect on both passengers and motorits that places a greater prominance on transit. For the passenger, the effect is that because they can see how much faster they are travelling than the cars beneath them, that it reinforces the idea that they are saving time by taking transit. For the driver, it may make them question whether or not they want to try taking transit, because it may indeed get them where they want to go, quicker.

Just like when you are in a traffic jam and the slow lane starts moving faster it reinforces that the slow lane is faster? I love watching the fools so easily convinced that the lane they are not in is the one that will get them somewhere faster and work so hard to change lanes only to have their previous lane start moving again. Fortunately those few aren't the majority. What about when you get to the station you are getting off at and then are stuck walking in the rain the rest of the way while the drivers are nice and dry? Does that re-inforce that transit gets you soaked and kill off TTC ridership? People don't choose transit because they saw it going faster, they choose it because it fits where they are going from, where they are going to, and the price and time they are willing to spend. Often on the Yonge line I see cars on Yonge near Davisville go faster... it doesn't change the fact that downtown parking is expensive and choosing the TTC was cheaper.

And at least I'm offering up ideas and thoughts, instead of having every 2nd post I make accusing people of creating straw men and logical fallacies.

You are posting any idea that comes to your head as an obvious fact rather than a brain fart. Any comparison to cities with elevated versus underground transit would have led you to question whether or not there is anything other than your quick observation to support what you are saying.

 

[Rainforest]

Yawn. And I'm sure you don't think of yourself as obsessed, bloviating and disingenuous either.

Man up and stop mewling like a little crybaby. If you're too thin-skinned to handle legitimate criticism or learn how to argue properly, go start a blog. Someone so utterly dependant on straw men, appeals to ignorance, and unsubstantiated conjecture clearly has nothing of value to add to this thread, or any other.

So if you keep spewing garbage, don't be surprised when someone cleans it up.

Yawn. And what value have any of your posts added, genius? To this thread, or any other?

While I don't necessarily agree with every gweed123 's proposal, his posts are presented well and interesting to read.

 

[Dan416]

I think people should stop commenting on people and rather on the content of their posts.

 

[Northern Magus]

And what value have any of your posts added, genius? To this thread, or any other?

While I don't necessarily agree with every gweed123 's proposal, his posts are presented well and interesting to read.

Oh yawwwn. You don't do much reading outside of your narrrow sphere of SOS-related threads, now do you? No, you sure don't.

In fact, when you were intimately involved with him and SOS in developing fantasy routes and fantasy maps, did you think his posts were "presented well and interesting to read" when he was throwing tantrums, spewing conspiracy theories about the TTC and city bureaucrats, or when your pals kept on smearing Steve Munro? Did you take a principled stand and chide them for their lack of "value"?

Silence is consent, Rainforest. And boy did you consent.

So I'm not entirely surprised that you now claim to find his disingenuous attempts to torque thread discussions onto terms more conducive to his positions to be so enlightening.

As long as posts share your agenda, they're clearly music to your ears.