Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[ssiguy2]

Let me make sure I get this straight........................now instead of a 13km tunnel under Eglinton it will now be a tunnel all the way from Jane to Kennedy?...................please tell me I have that wrong.
In case I don't, it begs the question as ro why they seem to see a need to tunnel under Eglinton east of Don Mills? Are they afraid that an elevated line would spoil the view of the gas stations, McDonald's, strip malls, and the industrial parks of the Golden Mile?
I also need to be enlightened as to why, seeing it's all going to be underground and any extensions will have complete ROW, they are building an LRT line instead of a Metro? 4 standard subway cars resulting in 80 metres has the same capacity of 100 metres of LRT train. In other words, smaller stations for the same capacity which results in less expensive stations.
I love it..............if they go ahead with standard LRT Toronto will find itself with yet another technology to deal with. Remember, although these are standard LRT trains they are different gauge than the downtown streetcars.
They are going to also spend a small fortune tearing down the SRT to replace with an LRT. Even if it hooks up to become a sort of STC/Eglinton?Pearson line why would they not just make the Eglinton section use SkyTrain tech. It would save having to screw around with the current line. They could modify the current line to accept the new MK11 cars and put in the heating mechanism. They already have a SkyTrain command centre and yard. They will have to build a whole new yard for LRT trains because they won't have the same gauge as the downtown streetcar. The SkyTrains also are faster with far better pickup and slow down. They have less contact with the actual rails so they also last longer than standard LRT cars. If they intend to elevated even small sections, SkyTrain is the cheapest followed by Metro. Elevated LRT is more expensive than either because it requires additional overhead wires and power supply. SkyTrain is cheaper than elevated Metro who's cars are heavier thus requiring larger concrete support structures and they have to be more closely spaced than standard SkyTrain.
This is truly bizzare.........................if Eglinton is to be completely ROW separated then SkyTrain or Metro is the choice and LRT more expensive due to needing longer stations for the same capacity and elevated sections are more expensive than either of the other two.
Just when I thought I'd heard everything...............

 

[CapitalSeven]

ssiguy, your puzzlement about building the thing underground between Don Mills and Kennedy is understandable. There are a lot of changes of grade in that section, at least the western part of it, and I doubt that there is a cheap and easy way of building it. It's going to cost a lot of money and serve a relatively small number of riders. But it's what the mayor wants, and as he and his puppetmaster brother have made clear, he intends to govern insofar as possible in the manner of Steven Harper - i.e. control freak dictatorship. Without Harper's smarts, however.

There are some serious misconceptions in the rest of your post though. The current SRT yard is too small and has to be replaced or supplemented no matter what the technology is. It's simply not true that they are planning to tear down the SRT to build LRT. The track is already the correct guage, though they'd likely take the opportunity to rebuild it while the line is out of service. The stations need a change of platform height, unless they go with a higher floor vehicle. The tunnel needs expanding. Much of the power system is out of date and would need replacing anyway, so the cost differential is much less than you state.

It's a substantial renovation, not a teardown. But as you say, there is a certain logic to linking up Eglinton and the SRT and using the same technology on both. There could be a large yard on the Kodak site and a small one at the east end where the current yard is.

 

[Asterix]

Let me make sure I get this straight........................now instead of a 13km tunnel under Eglinton it will now be a tunnel all the way from Jane to Kennedy?...................please tell me I have that wrong.

Can you provide a cite where anyone who has any decision making capacity (Metrolinx) has stated it will be tunneled all the way from Jane to Kennedy?

 

[caltrane74]

That is what the newspaper reports appear to be saying....I believe this will be the case.. as well.

Of course the Metrolinx plan has yet to be released, but using common sense this appears to be the road they are on.
---------------------------

Mayor Rob Ford is keeping mum about a plan to fund a major TTC subway extension with private dollars.

However, he said he wants investors to take the Sheppard Subway from Fairview Mall to Scarborough Town Centre.

"It is in the works. Things are going very well, and I'm very, very sure that we're going to get to building Sheppard underground and building Eglinton underground," he told 680News, but would not expand on the topic.

http://www.680news.com/news/local/a...ed-about-private-funding-for-subway-extension

___________________________

Another Story where we have gleamed knowledge on the path they are heading down

The bulk of that spending would be on the new Eglinton Avenue LRT – the line that the province was most set on, partly because it can be cast as part of a broader regional network. The city’s plan to put almost the entire thing underground, to appease Mr. Ford’s preference for subways, would drive up the cost. But the Liberals could surely live with that if they didn’t have to pay for Sheppard

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...inner-in-sheppard-subway-plan/article1910718/

 

[gweed123]

Another Story where we have gleamed knowledge on the path they are heading down

The bulk of that spending would be on the new Eglinton Avenue LRT – the line that the province was most set on, partly because it can be cast as part of a broader regional network. The city’s plan to put almost the entire thing underground, to appease Mr. Ford’s preference for subways, would drive up the cost. But the Liberals could surely live with that if they didn’t have to pay for Sheppard

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...inner-in-sheppard-subway-plan/article1910718/

Music to my ears . It doesn't have to be buried, but given the city's distain for elevated, I guess underground it is.

 

[drum118]

Can you provide a cite where anyone who has any decision making capacity (Metrolinx) has stated it will be tunneled all the way from Jane to Kennedy?

It was stated today at Metrolinx meeting by the chair and pres.

 

[ssiguy2]

I shutter to think where those saved funds could go if it wasn't tunneled east of Don Mills. Even if only half a billion bucks that would be a good start to a DRL. For that money they could at least build the 2 new connecting stations at Pape and Dundas West and expand the Queen LRT station for subway. Or they could use that half a billion for a further western extention of the Eglinton or extend BD east to Kingston.

 

[SlickFranky]

For that money they could at least build the 2 new connecting stations at Pape and Dundas West and expand the Queen LRT station for subway.

What the hell are you talking about??? Queen LRT? Pape and Dundas W stations connecting to what? If you're talking about prep'ing for a DRL, may I remind you that this line has no funding, no EA, no strong political backing...it's basically a line on a series of fantasy maps, and even those maps can't agree where it actually goes.

 

[Justin10000]

I shutter to think where those saved funds could go if it wasn't tunneled east of Don Mills. Even if only half a billion bucks that would be a good start to a DRL. For that money they could at least build the 2 new connecting stations at Pape and Dundas West and expand the Queen LRT station for subway. Or they could use that half a billion for a further western extention of the Eglinton or extend BD east to Kingston.

I have heard some bad transit punditry, but this takes the cake. The DRL is a pipe dream at the moment, no funding, no EA. It is part of a broader study, but that's it.

You act as if it's a piece of cake to allocate money to any project you can think of.

 

[Rainforest]

For DRL, indeed half a billion is too little and won't get it started any sooner. But for quite a few smaller-scale projects, half a billion would make a difference.

Assuming they will use light rail vehicles on Eglinton, tunneling between Don Mills and Kennedy is an overkill. Actually, street-median ROW would suffice in that section given its lower demand level. Even if they are going to through-route Eglinton and SRT, they could turn every 2-nd SRT vehicle at Kennedy Stn and reduce the frequency west of Kennedy to the level suitable for street-median ROW.

Full grade separation from Don Mills to Jane, or maybe Royal York, is a good idea since it will allow higher frequency on that higher-demand section. Even there, full grade separation does not necessarily require tunneling under West Don or Black Creek. At the West Don crossing (near Leslie), they certainly can consider options that include using two lanes of the existing bridge, or building a new bridge for LRT south of the existing one.

 

[nfitz]

What the hell are you talking about???

Is such rudeness really necessary?

Queen LRT?

I believe he was referring to the existing lower Queen LRT station constructed in early 1950s ... that they never used and has a pedestrian walkway through it now.

If you're talking about prep'ing for a DRL, may I remind you that this line has no funding, no EA, no strong political backing...

That seems to be understating the situation a bit. While the whole line is still just an idea, even the scope of the current TTC study includes the item "If necessary, undertake the appropriate functional design and environmental assessment studies required to obtain approval for the construction of the recommended facilities."

it's basically a line on a series of fantasy maps, and even those maps can't agree where it actually goes.

The location of the line - if it's recommended - will be an output of the current TTC study. However, I'd hardly call the maps that Metrolinx has published "fantasy maps". The location has been quite consistent on the maps Metrolinx has published over the years. The most recent map Metrolinx published yesterday still shows the line clearly running from Pape station to Queen station to Osgoode station and then to Dundas West station; I think everyone understands that this is subject to change with the completion of future studies, however it's clear that Metrolinx is contemplating the line intersecting with the Yonge-University line twice and creating two hubs north of Union rather than just one at Union.

 

[k10ery]

For DRL, indeed half a billion is too little and won't get it started any sooner. But for quite a few smaller-scale projects, half a billion would make a difference.

So now we're debating not the value of transit projects, but the value of a half billion dollars? In my opinion, its value is approximately $500,000,000.00.

But that's just my two cents.

 

[Platform 27]

The most recent map Metrolinx published yesterday still shows the line clearly running from Pape station to Queen station to Osgoode station and then to Dundas West station; I think everyone understands that this is subject to change with the completion of future studies, however it's clear that Metrolinx is contemplating the line intersecting with the Yonge-University line twice and creating two hubs north of Union rather than just one at Union.

Published yesterday? Where?

 

[GenerationW]

They're all fantasy maps until and unless they become reality.

 

[nfitz]

Published yesterday? Where?

On their website - page 7 of the Mobility Hub report dated February 18, 2011. In addition to the line on the map, note the downtown hubs St. George, Yonge/Bloor, Osgoode, Queen, Union ... as well as Dundas West/Bloor and Pape.