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Dufferin Street: Eliminating the jog

It is an interesting apporach to the problem of Dufferin being very narrow, but it misses a few things.

As I mentioned, they took streetcars off of Lansdowne in the 1940's due to traction issues, so I don't think you'd be able to make a great argument for them to be reinstated. Secondly, if Lansdowne and Dufferin are far apart enough to merit individual subway stations, it could be argued they are too far apart to expect someone to walk that distance just to catch a return trip.
 
The next generation of the LRVs are being designed with steep grades in mind, so the traction issue might not be a problem after 2010. The distance between Lansdowne and Dufferin is the major issue, but kudos for thinking out of the box.
 
Earlscourt_Lad said:
It is an interesting apporach to the problem of Dufferin being very narrow, but it misses a few things.

As I mentioned, they took streetcars off of Lansdowne in the 1940's due to traction issues, so I don't think you'd be able to make a great argument for them to be reinstated. Secondly, if Lansdowne and Dufferin are far apart enough to merit individual subway stations, it could be argued they are too far apart to expect someone to walk that distance just to catch a return trip.
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As RedRocket said, newer cars will solve this problem but I thought of that when I chose Dufferin as the Northbound route and Lansdowne the Southbound. Very little effort would be required to descend Lansdowne. One could even argue that these southbound cars wouldn't require overhead power lines on Lansdowne. They could just coast down using gravity and use breaking energy to fill batteries for the very few flat and uphill sections on the route.
 
Before the subway, the Peter Witt streetcar and trailer were able to handle the Avenue Road, Bathurst, and Yonge Street hills. Of course, they carried their own sand, which they were able to sprinkle on the tracks as needed. In normal use, the sand is sprinkled while braking.
 
Earlscourt_Lad said:
It is an interesting apporach to the problem of Dufferin being very narrow, but it misses a few things.

As I mentioned, they took streetcars off of Lansdowne in the 1940's due to traction issues, so I don't think you'd be able to make a great argument for them to be reinstated. Secondly, if Lansdowne and Dufferin are far apart enough to merit individual subway stations, it could be argued they are too far apart to expect someone to walk that distance just to catch a return trip.
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Streetcars were yanked off of Lansdowne as part of a trolley bus network that was built up in the west end starting in 1947 as part of an early step towards replacing streetcars on second-tier routes. The Lansdowne Carhouse was used for trolley buses, so that route was the logical place to start. Annette, Ossington, Weston and later Junction, came out of this.

The streetcars/LRVs in San Francisco have several fairly steep grades to contend with. Traction was probably one consideration, but it was not the only or driving consideration for Lansdowne - and as soon as the trolley buses were installed, the route was able to be extended to Queen from Dundas.
 
MetroMan said:
This may be a novel idea but a solution to the width could be to build a single streetcar lane ROW up Dufferin and then down another street such as Lansdowne.

Dufferin and Lansdowne are so close together that there wouldn't be any large impediment to serving as a single North-South ROW and having a single lane on each would minimize any effect on removing that lane of traffic on each.
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I kinda like this idea :). I always thought it silly that a major shopping centre like Dufferin Mall lies so close to the subway but is not connected to it via the underground. The ROW could stop at Waterloo/Florence, Dundas, College and Dufferin Grove/mall main entrance; and like you said be of major importance to linking BD to Queen St in relative speed. Your notion about Lansdowne is very practical and would serve southern Parkdale quite well. Just route down to Dufferin Gates, across Springhurst, up Jameson then back along King for the loop. It's that simple, and minimizes walktimes to homes in that area.
 
DENTROBATE54 said:
I kinda like this idea :). I always thought it silly that a major shopping centre like Dufferin Mall lies so close to the subway but is not connected to it via the underground.
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Okay. Where shall we begin? Let's see...Dufferin Mall first came to be around 1956, on the site of a shuttered racetrack. That was ten years before the B-D came about; subway commuters weren't an issue. It was also never a "hub" mall the way someplace like Yorkdale was; thus, there was never the motivation nor incentive to build a subway connection, not even after it was expanded and enclosed and made somewhat more "hubby" in the 70s. And besides, it isn't *that* close to the subway; Dufferin Collegiate and Kent PS and their respective schoolyards get in the way. You'd need a moving walkway much, much longer than the scrapped Spadina one to get there; and given what a lot of us know about those environs as well as Dufferin Mall's sometimes-checkered history, such a passageway could easily have scored a Kennedy Station-esque rep over time.

So, what's silly, or surprising? Honestly, if you want that problem "fixed", it's not a matter of building an underground connection that far south; it's a matter of moving Dufferin Mall northward by buying out the school sites (something which even mall management's considered in recent years)...
 
Adma is right. That is quite a stretch to have a Bloor subway connection that far south. As for The Duff buying out Kent PS, Crotia St. still gets in the way.

If they were to make such an expansion, this would involve closing off Crotia St. and expanding the Mall by 25% of its current size. That is quite an ambitious undertaking although it could be worth it for the Bloor St. address and a subway connection.

A Mall of that size and placement could come to rival even the Eaton Centre for most people's needs. If I lived anywhere North of Dundas and West of Bathurst, I'd rather go to an expanded Dufferin Mall then trek over to Yonge + Dundas.

However, if this plan of mine were to come to fruition, an underground Dufferin streetcar would offer the mall similar benefits for a tiny fraction of the cost (to the mall).
 
You could actually link the mall to the subway, much the way the sky-bridge connects the subway to Yorkdale Mall. No surprise, one-third of 29 south riders get off at the 3 Dufferin Mall stops (Croatia, Dufferin Grove, Slyvan) so we'd freeing up seats for long-dstance travellers as well via a direct link. The actual walkway would only have to extend from Bloor to Croatia (150m). The schools hence could remain though I feel they'll be bought out eventually due to being on prime real estate.

From there, the mall expands out towards it with retail units lining the passageway. The existing underground parking facilities could formulate part of the tunnel, whereby an extra deck for vehicles could be constructed on top of the surface parking area (in front of No Frills). Now that major retailers have set up shop in the mall, I consider it big-scale, especially considering it's the only major mall in the downtown besides Eaton's/Atrium which both connect to the subway. Some CCTV and mall guards will make it feel safe for travellers and 000s more shoppers will visit because of the barrier-free, weather-free access.
 
I was at the Dufferin Mall today for the first time in a couple years. To me, the biggest problem is a lack of south-side entrance/exit to the subway. The combination of bus stop and subway entrance/exit on the north side creates a mean traffic jam. I don't think you need a skywalk, or a link to the mall when a south side entrance/exit on Bloor will be more effective and make it quicker and easier for people to get to the other side and the mall. Besides, from what I could tell, it looks like most pedestrian traffic goes to and comes from south of Bloor, so it only makes sense. Of course there's the cynic around here that will immediately say "why spend money on such a short link, when things have been fine for 50 years" but oh well.
 
You could actually link the mall to the subway, much the way the sky-bridge connects the subway to Yorkdale Mall. No surprise, one-third of 29 south riders get off at the 3 Dufferin Mall stops (Croatia, Dufferin Grove, Slyvan) so we'd freeing up seats for long-dstance travellers as well via a direct link. The actual walkway would only have to extend from Bloor to Croatia (150m). The schools hence could remain though I feel they'll be bought out eventually due to being on prime real estate.

From there, the mall expands out towards it with retail units lining the passageway. The existing underground parking facilities could formulate part of the tunnel, whereby an extra deck for vehicles could be constructed on top of the surface parking area (in front of No Frills). Now that major retailers have set up shop in the mall, I consider it big-scale, especially considering it's the only major mall in the downtown besides Eaton's/Atrium which both connect to the subway. Some CCTV and mall guards will make it feel safe for travellers and 000s more shoppers will visit because of the barrier-free, weather-free access.
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Well...it's still a long ways to walk. We're still talking about a Queens Park-scaled connector (remember: the subway's on the N side of Bloor, the mall's on the S side of Croatia, etc). There isn't the psychological "immediacy" that there is btw/Yorkdale and the subway.

And...above all, think of what this does for Dufferin Mall. It'd turn it into a megablockbuster of a mall-retail experience. Are you sure the community wants that? Are you sure it's in their best interests? Do you think Jutta Mason and the Dufferin Grove crew would approve? At best, now, I suspect they "tolerate" Dufferin Mall as an it-is-what-it-is existing condition. I'm not so sure they'd approve its aggrandizement on behalf of "000s" more shoppers.

So...why even bother? Dufferin Mall's doing just fine as it is without a direct subway connection. Indeed, the lack of any such connection may well act as a mall-retail version of "traffic calming".

It's at times like this, DENTROBATE54, when you come off as utterly dunderheaded (or perhaps Aspergers-y) re the from-the-ground-up practicality of idealistic urban fantasy...
 
adma said:
Well...it's still a long ways to walk. We're still talking about a Queens Park-scaled connector (remember: the subway's on the N side of Bloor, the mall's on the S side of Croatia, etc). There isn't the psychological "immediacy" that there is btw/Yorkdale and the subway.

And...above all, think of what this does for Dufferin Mall. It'd turn it into a megablockbuster of a mall-retail experience. Are you sure the community wants that? Are you sure it's in their best interests? Do you think Jutta Mason and the Dufferin Grove crew would approve? At best, now, I suspect they "tolerate" Dufferin Mall as an it-is-what-it-is existing condition. I'm not so sure they'd approve its aggrandizement on behalf of "000s" more shoppers.

So...why even bother? Dufferin Mall's doing just fine as it is without a direct subway connection. Indeed, the lack of any such connection may well act as a mall-retail version of "traffic calming".

It's at times like this, DENTROBATE54, when you come off as utterly dunderheaded (or perhaps Aspergers-y) re the from-the-ground-up practicality of idealistic urban fantasy...
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Just thinking outside the box. I used to live near Lansdowne/Dupont so naturally the Galleria and Dufferin Mall were where I did most of my shopping. At times, especially winter, it's inhospitabe walking down to the mall from the subway and otherwise it's a long wait then overcrowding on the 29. It's okay to expect better than what is. I even thought big stores like the Bay and Sears could move in, by shuffling around some retailers to the new wing of the mall that would extend out to the subway tunnel. Urban fantasy perhaps but not remotely as exaggerative as the suggestion of an underground streetcar line beneath Dufferin.
 
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