unimaginative2
Senior Member
Agreed. With real regional rail, that would make an ideal stop for both.
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Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study
- Thread starter Ansem
- Start date
Agreed. With real regional rail, that would make an ideal stop for both.
sixrings
Senior Member
I think the ttc planners are more concerned with suburban travellers and with saving costs on stations.. If a DRL ever got built I am sure some downtown neighbourhoods would demand stops and they would be listened to since they have a dang good case (SOOO MANY PEOPLE).
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Barring a Quad (or triple) tracked DRL that offers both express and local stops. I support a southern DRL (King/Wellington) alignment, so that the Queen route can be preserved for an underground route (subway or LRT) with more local stop spacing as this is what Queen needs. Queen has more than enough riders to support itself on it's own without having to provide a DRL substitute as well.
The DRL's main purpose is to relieve the Yonge/Bloor station bottleneck and that should the be main criteria for it's alignment and design. What routing and stop spacing best attracts the most riders away from the Yonge/Bloor transfer. Meaning that the TTC would have to give a rider on Bloor an incentive to get off before Yonge and transfer onto the DRL. The only way a rider does that is if he/she knows they will a)find a seat and b) have a quicker more comfortable ride to their destination.
The DRL's main purpose is to relieve the Yonge/Bloor station bottleneck and that should the be main criteria for it's alignment and design. What routing and stop spacing best attracts the most riders away from the Yonge/Bloor transfer. Meaning that the TTC would have to give a rider on Bloor an incentive to get off before Yonge and transfer onto the DRL. The only way a rider does that is if he/she knows they will a)find a seat and b) have a quicker more comfortable ride to their destination.
Tulse
Senior Member
I think all of the above is true with the exception of "quicker". First off, not having to let full trains pass will produce quicker travel times for all concerned. Second, a rider may well choose to take a more comfortable ride, even if it is not faster. I often take the King and Dundas streetcars from Broadview Station to downtown, even though the subway is probably faster, because the ride is more pleasant. Third, for many riders the DRL will mean avoiding a transfer on their ride, most likely at the zoo that is Bloor-Yonge Station. That means a more reliable trip, and a much less hectic one.
In any case, I very much doubt that even with local station spacing, a DRL would be slower to downtown than BD to YUS. The spacing on BD from Pape to Yonge is fairly close, and of course the spacing of the downtown portion of the Yonge line is very close. The distance a DRL would have to cover would not be longer than the combined length of these stretches, and would have the advantage of not requiring a transfer. I can't imagine any reasonable scenario where a trip via the DRL to a Yonge station would take significantly more time than a trip via BD and YUS.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
The local stop spacing on a Queen section of the line would be most limited anyway, just pretty much through downtown. On Queen East they would only need a Moss Park stop and a combined Richmond GO and Broadview stop, skipping Parliament.
And on the West a City Hall stop would be an extra station for people to get on and off at to get to places around there, as well as incentive for people to transfer onto this Queen line from all the eastern GO routes close to the valley instead of continuing onto Union where everyone has to get off there.
And on the West a City Hall stop would be an extra station for people to get on and off at to get to places around there, as well as incentive for people to transfer onto this Queen line from all the eastern GO routes close to the valley instead of continuing onto Union where everyone has to get off there.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Well yes and no. If the idea is to get riders off of Bloor/Danforth before they reach Yonge than we must assume they have boarded the B/D train well before the planned transfer point (say Pape). Yes it's mere existence will generate ridership outside of this ridership group, but I think it will be more of riders of the King and Queen streetcars.
That said there are 10 station between Pape and King (including the two) meaning that we could theoretically squeeze 6 - 8 stations between the two along a DRL routing and coupled with avoiding the Yonge/Bloor station it would still be faster or at worse as fast as the current route.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
The station spacing is fairly irrelevant in my opinion, as long as the travel time is equal to taking YUS and BD then lots of people will use the DRL. Under my Queen St route I would suggest this stretch having stations at Yonge/Queen, Sherbourne, Parliament, Broadview/Queen, Carlaw/Queen, Gerrard/Pape (transfer to Lakeshore line local trains) and Pape/Danforth, a total of 5 intermediate stops. My opinion is what will really get a lot of people using the DRL, making ridership equal to or higher than the YUS, is extending the line up Don Mills Rd - to Eglinton in phase 1, to Finch in phase 2 and possibly to Leslie/7 or Downtown Markham in the distant future. This will suck up large numbers of people coming from the NE suburbs going downtown as well as reduce traffic congestion on the DVP & 404.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Actually, back in the 80s, downtown residents and councillors were fighting against stops in their neighbourhoods. Jack Layton led the charge against the DRL because he believed it would bring about more development at stations and in the downtown core.
I've been thinking: what if instead of crossing the Don and connecting to B-D at Pape, what if instead they ran the DRL up Parliament to Castle Frank? It would be a much shorter route, and would support the densification of pretty much everything south of Bloor from Yonge all the way to the Don Valley. That area is prime for densification, and a subway could be a huge catalyst.
To extend the line further north, it could be run through the Don Valley itself to Thorncliffe Park. That would make the extension up to Eglinton much cheaper.
Also, Castle Frank would be a much easier station to modify, because it could be shut down for a year or two and very few people would care (I think it has either the lowest or 2nd lowest ridership count on the entire B-D line). Run the buses that normally run there to Sherbourne station instead during construction.
Thoughts?
To extend the line further north, it could be run through the Don Valley itself to Thorncliffe Park. That would make the extension up to Eglinton much cheaper.
Also, Castle Frank would be a much easier station to modify, because it could be shut down for a year or two and very few people would care (I think it has either the lowest or 2nd lowest ridership count on the entire B-D line). Run the buses that normally run there to Sherbourne station instead during construction.
Thoughts?
toraerach
Active Member
Building a subway line that will only be useful for long distance commuters for a few hours on weekdays would be a huge waste of resources. At the very least, the DRL ought to have stations that connect to heavily used surface routes or where significant density exists. Otherwise we'd end up with a line that would end up running mostly empty through some of the densest parts of the city off-peak and on weekends. Fortunately the Eastern leg of the DRL could still serve existing communities along the line and surface riders while remaining competitve with the Yonge line during peak hours. Depending on the alignment (for the sake of argument, I'll use a King alignment here), we probably wouldn't need any more than five stations between Pape and Yonge (compared to nine stations between Pape and King stations via BD and YUS): Gerrard (connecting to the 506), Queen (connecting to the 501), Broadview (connecting to what remains of the 504), Cherry/Parliament (connecting to the 65 and Cherry LRT), and Sherbourne/Jarvis (serving the dense St. Lawrence neighbourhood). The Western leg of the DRL, if it's ever built at all, would have to connect to more heavily used surface routes, but would not have to compete as directly with the University line as the Eastern leg does with Yonge.
MisterF
Senior Member
Even if a DRL from Pape to King has the same number of stations as the current Bloor and Yonge lines, it would probably still be faster. The transfer at Pape would no doubt be faster than the transfer at Yonge, and the line itself would likely be built to higher design standards and allow for faster speeds. Even with downtown style stop spacing I couldn't see that portion having any more than 8 or so stations, so it'll likely be a faster ride no matter how it's designed.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Maybe just 3 in between. Gerrard Square, Richmond GO connection at Broadview and Queen, and Sherbourne.
nfitz
Superstar
I'd add one between Sherbourne and Broadview. That's pretty dense area, and getting increasingly so - and 1.7 km between stations is a bit far.
Not sure what you mean by Richmond GO connection ...
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
To have it connect with the GO line that goes to Oriole station on Queen. And to add a 4th station after Sherbourne would probably be a Parliament Station.
nfitz
Superstar
That wouldn't be at Broadview though ... or did you mean Bayview.