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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

BurlOak said:
The big problem is that the debate is about 2 very poor plans - the 1 stop subway and the transfer LRT. If there were better solutions, maybe we could come to more of a consensus. I changed sides with the debate on this site:
  1. When I first started, I was in favour of the B-D subway extension to STC. After realizing how Y-B is not the downtown destination most people are after, and realizing the numbers of people that would be transferring, and to some extent the cost (from the 2006 TTC report), I soured on this solution.
  2. When I looked at the transfer LRT in the Transit City plan, I realized that had the exact same passenger flow patterns, but with 1 extra transfer. Essentially, it had all the problems, plus an additional transfer, just to save a few bucks.
  3. I then realized that the line needs to go from Scarborough to Downtown without using the Yonge line. The connected SRT / ECLRT solve this quite well, but two things were missing. 1) The costs were too high - something that could be solved with elevation. 2) It would bring people to Y-E - something that could be solved with a DRL to Eglinton. Unfortunately, it was more important for Councillors and the Provincial Liberals to defeat Ford than to solve the transit problem or get a DRL to Eglinton, so this was scrapped.
  4. I still think SmartSpur had some merit, but there were 2 main thing working against it - namely that Metrolinx didn't want to give up track space on the Markham or LSE corridor, and the Provincial Liberals did not want to give credit to John Tory for finding a solution. Thus this idea couldn't fly under the current circumstances.
  5. The only other option is to find a whole new transit line that is not tainted by history. This can either be from Malvern to STC to Gatineau Hydro Corridor to Don Valley to Downtown, or Malvern to STC to Kingston Road to downtown.
#3, #4, and #5 all have the great benefit that they bring passengers closer to their destination. That being City Hall (with 1 transfer using DRL), Union (with SmartSpur), or Financial District (with a new line).
Click to expand...

I concur. Nothing wrong with a little healthy debate, so long as we don't resort to personal attacks and name calling.

The choices we've been given to choose from are at the root cause of the disagreement. SSE with 3-stops as Phase One and a firm commitment to extend further into Malvern in the foreseeable future would probably make everyone happy. Likewise had the MOU Ford and McGuinty crafted in 2010 passed City Council there'd also be smiles all around.

People don't care whether it's a light rail or heavy rail vehicle transporting them, they just want to get to their destinations fast and with as few transfers as necessary. A continuous line to Yonge Street is what east-west commuters want and need. It shouldn't be so hard to figure that out.
 
pstogios said:
I got banned for calling out ridiculously uninformed and Trumpian paranoia. Now the ban is over and it looks like I missed a ton more idiotic stuff here.
This thread is a black hole - just like the Scarborough subway will be for the City's finances.
Click to expand...

When you say nonsense such as people's posts supporting the 1-stop extension is 'Trumpian paranoia', you deserve to get banned :p
 
Juan_Lennon416 said:
When you say nonsense such as people's posts supporting the 1-stop extension is 'Trumpian paranoia', you deserve to get banned :p
Click to expand...

That's not what I said is Trumpian paranoia.

The Trumpian paranoia here is the accusations that (a) the media, (b) Toronto City Council, (c) anyone at all that lives/works/has an association with downtown Toronto are somehow biased against Scarborough having suitable transit connectivity simply because they have the audacity to point out that ridership, density and such traditional rational, logical, quantifiable and non-political metrics that are essential for choosing transit modes ALL speak AGAINST a subway in Scarborough.

NOT TO MENTION that the subway will bankrupt this city of the ability to pay for widely agreed upon absolutely critical transit infrastructure (i.e. the Relief Line).

The people that made those accusations are spouting Trumpian paranoia--it is paranoia to think that people that believe in rationality somehow hate Scarborough.
 
SSE supporters do tend to argue ad hominem a lot. Even Tory waded into that gutter.
 
pstogios said:
That's not what I said is Trumpian paranoia.

The Trumpian paranoia here is the accusations that (a) the media, (b) Toronto City Council, (c) anyone at all that lives/works/has an association with downtown Toronto are somehow biased against Scarborough having suitable transit connectivity simply because they have the audacity to point out that ridership, density and such traditional rational, logical, quantifiable and non-political metrics that are essential for choosing transit modes ALL speak AGAINST a subway in Scarborough.

NOT TO MENTION that the subway will bankrupt this city of the ability to pay for widely agreed upon absolutely critical transit infrastructure (i.e. the Relief Line).

The people that made those accusations are spouting Trumpian paranoia--it is paranoia to think that people that believe in rationality somehow hate Scarborough.
Click to expand...

Yet, subways are being built to Vaughan and Richmond Hill. If anti SSE people and media had put half the energy in fighting York extension, than it be a different narrative. From Scarborough's perspective, subways goes to York with even less population, density and questionable ridership while witnessing the media and people that are anti SSE either being passive or barely denouncing it...I too would be seriously upset

Not saying you're wrong but this double standards and inconsistencies fuels anger, which I can understand even if I don't live in Scarborough
 
Cobra said:
Yet, subways are being built to Vaughan and Richmond Hill. If anti SSE people and media had put half the energy in fighting York extension, than it be a different narrative. From Scarborough's perspective, subways goes to York with even less population, density and questionable ridership while witnessing the media and people that are anti SSE either being passive or barely denouncing it...I too would be seriously upset

Not saying you're wrong but this double standards and inconsistencies fuels anger, which I can understand even if I don't live in Scarborough
Click to expand...

The other extension is not being debated yet - the SSE is front and centre.

I was not a fan of extensions to Vaughan nor the Richmond Hill extension being discussed, certainly not ahead of the DRL and other transit priorities.

There's a very big difference though - the Spadina Line extension isn't a "Vaughan" subway - it ends at Vaughan, but it's a 6 stop extension that provides a lot more value.

It isn't a pricier, 1-stop extension to a location that already has a direct transit connection.
 
syn said:
The other extension is not being debated yet - the SSE is front and centre.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I`m talking about. You dodge the issue which makes you unable to see the whole situation from the "evil & entitled" people of Scarborough point of view

syn said:
I was not a fan of extensions to Vaughan nor the Richmond Hill extension being discussed, certainly not ahead of the DRL and other transit priorities.
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about all those politicians at City hall, journalists and editorialists that spend so much time to fight the SSE while being barely noticeable in regards to York Extension

syn said:
There's a very big difference though - the Spadina Line extension isn't a "Vaughan" subway - it ends at Vaughan, but it's a 6 stop extension that provides a lot more value.
Click to expand...
Provides more value...so you accept it? wow
SSE is not a "Scarborough Subway". It's the extension of the Bloor-Danforth line to Scarborough Centre which is part of the city of Toronto contrarily to Vaughan.
What value does Highway 407 and Vaughan Metropolitain "Mega-Ultra Centre of the Universe" has? Why not end it at Steeles? Why didn't people put half the fight against that one versus SSE?

syn said:
It isn't a pricier, 1-stop extension to a location that already has a direct transit connection.
Click to expand...
Which has an unpractical and inefficient transfer while requiring the TTC to operate shuttle buses for 3 years +, a scenario which the TTC wants no part of and obviously, neither the majority of council. So what now.

This is what irritates me beyond belief with the LRT plan and its advocate. It's the stubbornness and utter refusal to even entertain solutions to solve the following 3 problems:
  • Kennedy transfer?
  • Avoiding dumping thousands of people on shuttles buses for 3+ years
  • How to have a link to the network that will also include a plan to revitalize Scarborough Centre.
With LRT advocate, it was transit city or nothing. That right there is my problem.
Why wasn't skytrain pushed?
Why wasn't elevated LRT pushed?
Why was the merged Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown solution rejected?
There was ZERO attempt to address the main criticism of the RT that people have been complaining about for 30 years. That's what's pissing them off, being told that
-"we're going to make your commute a nightmare for the next 3 years, and after that, you'll be getting more of the same. Oh, and we have no plan to revitalize Scarborough Centre at all"

People made clear they didn't want more of the same. I don't believe LRT was the problem since the merged Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown LRT was accepted and supported in Scarborough, but a bunch of stubborn people who thinks they know better than everyone else sank that plan, which left these people with nothing else to fight for than "subways, subways, subways". Sure that plan would have required the same shutdown of the RT, however, it's clear people were willing to make that sacrifice for a huge improvement over shutting down the line for more of the same.

What about Finch LRT?
What's wrong with BRT? Finch Avenue West could have started by implementing this before going to LRT:
  1. An Express Branch
  2. Row of way for buses during rush hours
  3. BRT corridor in the middle of the corridor
  4. LRT
So lament all you want, there's nothing stopping the subway now and LRT advocates and medias should take a hard look at themselves because they are in pure denials by refusing to admit that they bear part of the blame.
 
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Cobra said:
Exactly what I`m talking about. You dodge the issue which makes you unable to see the whole situation from the "evil & entitled" people of Scarborough point of view


I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about all those politicians at City hall, journalists and editorialists that spend so much time to fight the SSE while being barely noticeable in regards to York Extension


Provides more value...so you accept it? wow
SSE is not a "Scarborough Subway". It's the extension of the Bloor-Danforth line to Scarborough Centre which is part of the city of Toronto contrarily to Vaughan.
What value does Highway 407 and Vaughan Metropolitain "Mega-Ultra Centre of the Universe" has? Why not end it at Steeles? Why didn't people put half the fight against that one versus SSE?


Which has an unpractical and inefficient transfer while requiring the TTC to operate shuttle buses for 3 years +, a scenario which the TTC wants no part of and obviously, neither the majority of council. So what now.

This is what irritates me beyond belief with the LRT plan and its advocate. It's the stubbornness and utter refusal to even entertain solutions to solve the following 3 problems:
  • Kennedy transfer?
  • Avoiding dumping thousands of people on shuttles buses for 3+ years
  • How to have a link to the network that will also include a plan to revitalize Scarborough Centre.
With LRT advocate, it was transit city or nothing. That right there is my problem.
Why wasn't skytrain pushed?
Why wasn't elevated LRT pushed?
Why was the merged Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown solution rejected?
There was ZERO attempt to address the main criticism of the RT that people have been complaining about for 30 years. That's what's pissing them off, being told that
-"we're going to make your commute a nightmare for the next 3 years, and after that, you'll be getting more of the same. Oh, and we have no plan to revitalize Scarborough Centre at all"

People made clear they didn't want more of the same. I don't believe LRT was the problem since the merged Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown LRT was accepted and supported in Scarborough, but a bunch of stubborn people who thinks they know better than everyone else sank that plan, which left these people with nothing else to fight for than "subways, subways, subways". Sure that plan would have required the same shutdown of the RT, however, it's clear people were willing to make that sacrifice for a huge improvement over shutting down the line for more of the same.

What about Finch LRT?
What's wrong with BRT? Finch Avenue West could have started by implementing this before going to LRT:
  1. An Express Branch
  2. Row of way for buses during rush hours
  3. BRT corridor in the middle of the corridor
  4. LRT
So lament all you want, there's nothing stopping the subway now and LRT advocates and medias should take a hard look at themselves because they are in pure denials by refusing to admit that they bear part of the blame.
Click to expand...

The York Extension is in it's infancy and is really more of a provincial concern - kind of like the Spadina Extension. That's why it's not being discussed in city council.

You should be asking yourself why Scarborough Councilors aren't pushing these solutions. Why aren't they being held responsible for promoting misinformation?

Why was a downtown councilor (Josh Maltow) the one pushing for a re-opening of the LRT discussion and potential alignments?

As for the transfer, there's nothing inefficient about it. In fact, it's extremely efficient given the density and ridership in Scarborough.

That's how transit works. What's most efficient is what serves the population best based on the density and ridership in a given area.

The Finch LRT is very necessary - it's pretty much maxed at this point.
 
syn said:
The York Extension is in it's infancy and is really more of a provincial concern - kind of like the Spadina Extension. That's why it's not being discussed in city council.

You should be asking yourself why Scarborough Councilors aren't pushing these solutions. Why aren't they being held responsible for promoting misinformation?

Why was a downtown councilor (Josh Maltow) the one pushing for a re-opening of the LRT discussion and potential alignments?

As for the transfer, there's nothing inefficient about it. In fact, it's extremely efficient given the density and ridership in Scarborough.

That's how transit works. What's most efficient is what serves the population best based on the density and ridership in a given area.

The Finch LRT is very necessary - it's pretty much maxed at this point.
Click to expand...

I'm bored of this, LRT advocates F'd up when they sank the Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown LRT which was 100% paid by the province.

Instead of raising a billion dollars for the SSE, that billion could have been raised for Finch LRT, which most likely would have had some of it's cost taken by upper governments.

But no, some "know it all" fought for Transit City to the bitter end . The result?

Subway it is.

End of story
 
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syn said:
The Finch LRT is very necessary - it's pretty much maxed at this point.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be great if there was a mass transit system that could alleviate that? And that is why Subways are the true way to go.
Yonge was a streetcar line. So was Bloor.
Much of the DRL is a streetcar line.

If you are at max passenger load with buses, LRT is not enough.

But what do I know, I am just looking at the history.
 
Cobra said:
I'm bored of this, LRT advocates F'd up when they sank the Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown LRT which was 100% paid by the province.

Instead of raising a billion dollars for the SSE, that billion could have been raised for Finch LRT, which most likely would have had some of it's cost taken by upper governments.

But no, some "know it all" fought for Transit City to the bitter end . The result?

Subway it is.

End of story
Click to expand...

I don't know where this idea keeps coming from, the choice was not between the the SSE and the all underground Eglinton LRT connected to the SRT. The choice was between cancelling the Finch, Sheppard and the SRT extention LRT's and putting all that money into the underground Eglinton line, which would have been a massive waste of money that would have only saved a few minutes of travel time to a location where there is already a subway and a GO Train line that travel in the same general direction.

No one would have voted to raise taxes to build anything on Finch.
 
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