Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

Kind of like you completely ignore things like ridership, density, cost ratios, etc.?

Keep digging that hole. Asking to put back the cancelled Malvern stop and accelerate the Eglinton East to make LRT more attractive is none of what you accuse me of here.

I'm only suggesting that it's the lack of these things hat has lead to a perception of LRT as less desirable. It's up to you to convince voters.

Unfortunately we have leaders too concerned about getting votes

Democracy is funny like that.....

 

[OneCity]

Since the LRT plan was to be grade-separated all the way to Malvern Town Centre, how much difference would a subway doing the exact same thing be in the long run?

If we can get past the perceived savings of the LRT plan knowing that an LRT using the McCowan route would have costed more than SLRT, and that the Stoufville GO corridor AD2W expansion would have absorbed the land currently occupied by the SRT - one naturally can come to the conclusion that SSE is the best option at the end of the day.

If you want to make the subway extension a better deal for Scarborough and regional transit expansion, you simply add more stations. Ensure that Lawrence East is included from the initial build and cut down the commute times from east Scarborough by adding the station at Brimley-Eglinton. And really push for a second phase expansion to Morningside Heights, which I'd prioritize even above the Crosstown East expansion to UTSC.

This frenetic desire to build the cheapest rapid transit money can buy is costing people in Scarborough (in the north and east especially) their ability to live they live and still be able to get around the city comfortably.

This is basically the majority Scarborough voter POV from day one and the reason subway "champions" will continue to rule the day in Scarborough against the complete arrogance of the opposition which has some strict fascination with the LRT technology itself. Some argued you cant built the subway on the RT corridor. Tory's recent report proved that wrong unfortunately Smarttrack is now sitting on what could have been the subway if attention was paid to the support for better integration of SCC. Ford & McGuinty even compromised and that wasn't enough. So a one stop could really be a reality and it will end up being more of a middle finger to the opposition who thought they could force in the their transfer LRT to Scarborough Centre against the massive Political support. To force something upon a "City" of 600K they have overwhelmingly voted down and think there wont be massive consequences is an interesting strategy to say the least. Good luck to everyone in this City coming into an election year as its beyond difficult to see a comparable solution being found at this stage.

 

[syn]

Keep digging that hole. Asking to put back the cancelled Malvern stop and accelerate the Eglinton East to make LRT more attractive is none of what you accuse me of here.

I'm only suggesting that it's the lack of these things hat has lead to a perception of LRT as less desirable. It's up to you to convince voters.

The LRT was considered desirable until they were told that they should get a subway 'like downtown' and shouldn't have to make any transfers. Let's not forget Transit City included a Malvern LRT Line, one people were happy to lose once they were told a subway was better.

A subway extension in Scarborough should've never even been an option.

Democracy is funny like that.....

Earning votes by doing a good job and buying them are two very different things.

 

[syn]

This is basically the majority Scarborough voter POV from day one and the reason subway "champions" will continue to rule the day in Scarborough against the complete arrogance of the opposition which has some strict fascination with the LRT technology itself. Some argued you cant built the subway on the RT corridor. Tory's recent report proved that wrong unfortunately Smarttrack is now sitting on what could have been the subway if attention was paid to the support for better integration of SCC. Ford & McGuinty even compromised and that wasn't enough. So a one stop could really be a reality and it will end up being more of a middle finger to the opposition who thought they could force in the their transfer LRT to Scarborough Centre against the massive Political support. To force something upon a "City" of 600K they have overwhelmingly voted down and think there wont be massive consequences is an interesting strategy to say the least. Good luck to everyone in this City coming into an election year as its beyond difficult to see a comparable solution being found at this stage.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nts-back-lrt-but-only-slightly-poll-says.html

Looking at facts is 'complete arrogance'?

 

[kEiThZ]

Let's not forget Transit City included a Malvern LRT Line,

Are you referring to the Malvern stop that McGuinty cut which removed the chief benefit of a centralized stop which really cut bus rides in the community or are you referring to the Eglinton East line (former Scarborough-Malvern LRT) which was only hypothetical in even the medium term until Tory pushed it as part of his compromise plan?

 

[Rainforest]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nts-back-lrt-but-only-slightly-poll-says.html

Looking at facts is 'complete arrogance'?

Flawed poll, the question formulated in a way that nudges the respondents towards the LRT plan.

 

[Rainforest]

Earning votes by doing a good job and buying them are two very different things.

You should try running for one of the Provincial or City Council seats in Scarborough. Let's see what the voters really think.

 

[Rainforest]

Since the LRT plan was to be grade-separated all the way to Malvern Town Centre, how much difference would a subway doing the exact same thing be in the long run?

If we can get past the perceived savings of the LRT plan knowing that an LRT using the McCowan route would have costed more than SLRT, and that the Stoufville GO corridor AD2W expansion would have absorbed the land currently occupied by the SRT - one naturally can come to the conclusion that SSE is the best option at the end of the day.

If you want to make the subway extension a better deal for Scarborough and regional transit expansion, you simply add more stations. Ensure that Lawrence East is included from the initial build and cut down the commute times from east Scarborough by adding the station at Brimley-Eglinton. And really push for a second phase expansion to Morningside Heights, which I'd prioritize even above the Crosstown East expansion to UTSC.

This frenetic desire to build the cheapest rapid transit money can buy is costing people in Scarborough (in the north and east especially) their ability to live they live and still be able to get around the city comfortably.

I support the Lawrence East and Brimley-Eglinton subway stations, with the subway terminus either at STC or at Sheppard & McCowan.

For the route from STC to Progress Campus and to Malvern, I'd rather select a less demanding technology than a full-fledged TTC subway. Either LRT, or a kind of light subway. The latter could combine nicely with the modified Sheppard line, if we figure out how to modify it.

The new line can be fast / have wide stop spacing, but it can handle tighter turns and steeper grades than a full-fledged subway, and therefore will be cheaper to build.

 

[kEiThZ]

You should try running for one of the Provincial or City Council seats in Scarborough. Let's see what the voters really think.

Exactly. Easy criticize. No skin in the game.

I fully believe that the only reason the subway is on the agenda is not even because Scarborough wants one, but because the politicians (at all three levels) absolutely fear the 2 year shutdown for conversion. There is no way they get through that without losses. And none of them want that on their watch. I think that's what flipped Mitzie Hunter. Everyone likes the idea of LRT. But only the Scarborough politicians have to run on it with a multi-year shutdown and lots of pissed off residents. Notice how the province isn't even forcing the SRT corridor subway conversion? They are going down Danforth. They really don't want that shutdown.

Let's not forget they were supposed to have Sheppard East by now. And that was supposed to provide some relief for the shutdown. That didn't happen. So now, any SRT shutdown hurts a massive chunk of Scarborough.

If there was a way to build LRT without disrupting the RT, I think they'd consider it.

 

[Hopkins123]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nts-back-lrt-but-only-slightly-poll-says.html

Looking at facts is 'complete arrogance'?

Easy to skew a poll in your favour if promising seven of something instead of one. Of course, five of the seven stops already exist... so really it's only a net gain of two new stops and still involves transferring trains at Kennedy as opposed to a through-service, but I digress.

 

[Cobra]

@Moderators: should split this thread in half.

• Debate LRT vs subway
• Scarborough subway extension (Design phase)

This is getting out of hand

 

[kEiThZ]

I support the Lawrence East and Brimley-Eglinton subway stations, with the subway terminus either at STC or at Sheppard & McCowan.

For the route from STC to Progress Campus and to Malvern, I'd rather select a less demanding technology than a full-fledged TTC subway. Either LRT, or a kind of light subway. The latter could combine nicely with the modified Sheppard line, if we figure out how to modify it.

The new line can be fast / have wide stop spacing, but it can handle tighter turns and steeper grades than a full-fledged subway, and therefore will be cheaper to build.

If they're building the subway, it's just pointless not to have Lawrence East as a minimum. Scope creep or not.

From SC to Malvern, I question whether they even need full LRT. Honestly what they need is an LRT lite with a streetcar line with some segregated portions (like the Progress Hydro corridor) having a few more stops would actually be better. As it stands the LRT proposal going from McCowan right to Centennial with no stops in between just sucks for the condos along there and businesses. And that's happening because they are insisting on grade separation. No stop at Markham also bites. If they need the grade separation at Markham, I can't see why they can't do an elevated station there. An at-grade (for the most part) streetcar line would allow for a lot more stops with some grade separation where necessary.

In any event, it's all moot. They'll build the subway and figure out something for Malvern later. Maybe they can build BRT lanes on Progress.

 

[Rainforest]

If they're building the subway, it's just pointless not to have Lawrence East as a minimum. Scope creep or not.

From SC to Malvern, I question whether they even need full LRT. Honestly what they need is an LRT lite with a streetcar line with some segregated portions (like the Progress Hydro corridor) having a few more stops would actually be better. As it stands the LRT proposal going from McCowan right to Centennial with no stops in between just sucks for the condos along there and businesses. And that's happening because they are insisting on grade separation. No stop at Markham also bites. If they need the grade separation at Markham, I can't see why they can't do an elevated station there. An at-grade (for the most part) streetcar line would allow for a lot more stops with some grade separation where necessary.

In any event, it's all moot. They'll build the subway and figure out something for Malvern later. Maybe they can build BRT lanes on Progress.

Makes sense. If the route from STC to Malvern is a standalone line, then indeed either a BRT or a partly-separated LRT with more frequent stop spacing is optimal.

On the other hand, if we figure out how to replace Sheppard with a light subway or a high-floor LRT, then there are certain benefits in running it through STC to Progress Campus and Malvern as a single line.

 

[Hopkins123]

Your whole rational for a Subway here seems to be that there is not enough room in the SRT corridor for another GO train track, I would say there is, and just how is wanting LRT stopping transit from being built to north and east Scarborough? LRT would have built transit there, and this Subway has stopped it.

Well, if neither linking the Crosstown Line to the SRT corridor for a through-run from Pearson to Malvern nor renovating Kennedy Stn on an axis to have the Bloor-Danforth route up the SRT corridor are possible at this point, then the only way to achieve a transfer-free ride from Scarborough Ctr to Yonge and points west seems to be what the SSE devises to do. May as well free up the land for GO commuter rail expansion as well.

The point I was trying to make though is that, if both LRT and subway have to be grade-separated anyway, cost-wise there may not be much of a difference in expanding rapid transit to Malvern using subway technology instead of LRT. The LRT argument is weakened in such a case.

 

[Hopkins123]

If they're building the subway, it's just pointless not to have Lawrence East as a minimum. Scope creep or not.

From SC to Malvern, I question whether they even need full LRT. Honestly what they need is an LRT lite with a streetcar line with some segregated portions (like the Progress Hydro corridor) having a few more stops would actually be better. As it stands the LRT proposal going from McCowan right to Centennial with no stops in between just sucks for the condos along there and businesses. And that's happening because they are insisting on grade separation. No stop at Markham also bites. If they need the grade separation at Markham, I can't see why they can't do an elevated station there. An at-grade (for the most part) streetcar line would allow for a lot more stops with some grade separation where necessary.

In any event, it's all moot. They'll build the subway and figure out something for Malvern later. Maybe they can build BRT lanes on Progress.

To touch on the map I produced a few pages back, it would definitely be possible to elevate the Bloor-Danforth subway beyond Scarborough Centre and include a station at Bellamy/Corporate:



It could remain above-grade til just south of Milner where it enters a portal, for the Sheppard East Stn and continue underground following Sewells out to Morningside and Finch. This allows for the Malvern Town Centre station to be situated in the heart of the community (Neilson/Sewells) as opposed to in the rail corridor where no one lives.