Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

I don't know where this idea keeps coming from, the choice was not between the the SSE and the all underground Eglinton LRT connected to the SRT. The choice was between cancelling the Finch, Sheppard and the SRT extention LRT's and putting all that money into the underground Eglinton line, which would have been a massive waste of money that would have only saved a few minutes of travel time to a location where there is already a subway and a GO Train line that travel in the same general direction.

No one would have voted to raise taxes to build anything on Finch.

Exactly.

Ford's modifications would've put the entire line underground, eliminated 18 stops, doubled the cost and eliminated funding for LRTs in any other part of the city.

It was guaranteed to be rejected.

 

[OneCity]

Exactly.

Ford's modifications would've put the entire line underground, eliminated 18 stops, doubled the cost and eliminated funding for LRTs in any other part of the city.

It was guaranteed to be rejected.

As far a SSE/SLRT Ford compromised with McGuinty connecting the SLRT to Eglinton in conjunction with the agreement to move forward with the Sheppard subway.

I don't care to debate whether Ford plans were right or the best. The message was clear and a major point of his campaign was that the other plan was flawed and not what the people wanted. In every election since residents have voted strongly for a network with improved connectivity and that also meant the subway loop. Ford compromised on this line and that something the opposition has shown they are incapable of in the face of overwhelming Political support and a clear message to do better in Scarborough.

Anyway at this stage it might almost be too late but if we don't see some sort of compromise soon the expensive one stop and Smarttrack wedge Tory has shunted across this hardened debate could become the reality

 

[Tuck]

Wouldn't it be great if there was a mass transit system that could alleviate that? And that is why Subways are the true way to go.
Yonge was a streetcar line. So was Bloor.
Much of the DRL is a streetcar line.

If you are at max passenger load with buses, LRT is not enough.

But what do I know, I am just looking at the history.

I'm going to assume (or rather, hope) that by subways you mean "grade separated" and are not actually suggesting we build a subway on Finch.

 

[micheal_can]

LRT has a greater capacity than busses, how can it not be enough?

And as you said Bloor and Yonge were streetcars, not busses, so how does it follow that a full bus route requires a subway?

Actually, you just proved my point. We will have to rebuild EC LRT likely within 30 years because it will be over capacity. Whereas the Yonge Subway took about 50 years to get to capacity.

Again, history doesn't lie.

 

[Voltz]

Actually, you just proved my point. We will have to rebuild EC LRT likely within 30 years because it will be over capacity. Whereas the Yonge Subway took about 50 years to get to capacity.

Again, history doesn't lie.

No I didn't, and where is your data to support that claim about Eglinton? I'm not going to go digging for the numbers on this for you, but I remember the long term ridership estimates being well below the lines capacity. And even if did eventually get full there are other corridors where lines could and should get built that would relive Eglinton, such as Lawrence and the Midtown railway corridor.

As for believing that Finch will need a subway, that is the height of absurdity.

 

[rbt]

Actually, you just proved my point. We will have to rebuild EC LRT likely within 30 years because it will be over capacity. Whereas the Yonge Subway took about 50 years to get to capacity.

Where are all these riders on EC LRT riders going? Perhaps the vast majority would be transferring onto something else? If that something else doesn't have capacity for an additional 30,000pph (15k eastbound + 15k westbound) going mostly southbound during AM peak, then EC LRT will not be over capacity at any point in the foreseeable future; it's impossible as the fire department will step-in and require trains skip Yonge station.

So, Yonge being at capacity today prevents EC LRT from getting even close to its limit mostly due to Eglinton not having much in the way of actual destinations. The DRL, which offloads Yonge will also offload EC LRT's peak ridership point (near Yonge) too.

EC LRT has sufficient capacity until Eglinton & Yonge has similar levels of employment as Bay & King in the 90's.

 

[syn]

As far a SSE/SLRT Ford compromised with McGuinty connecting the SLRT to Eglinton in conjunction with the agreement to move forward with the Sheppard subway.

I don't care to debate whether Ford plans were right or the best. The message was clear and a major point of his campaign was that the other plan was flawed and not what the people wanted. In every election since residents have voted strongly for a network with improved connectivity and that also meant the subway loop. Ford compromised on this line and that something the opposition has shown they are incapable of in the face of overwhelming Political support and a clear message to do better in Scarborough.

Anyway at this stage it might almost be too late but if we don't see some sort of compromise soon the expensive one stop and Smarttrack wedge Tory has shunted across this hardened debate could become the reality

Because there are actual facts and context attached to his plans?

Ford didn't compromise at all. He presented a plan that doubled the cost, cut the number of stations and eliminated the possibility of other priority areas receiving any transit upgrades. That isn't compromise in any sense of the word.

Councilors have tried to 'compromise' but Scarborough is demanding a subway...and that includes Scarborough Councilors spreading misinformation. Even with costs rising to ridiculous levels and the plan reduced to just one stop, it must be a subway.

There's certainly a lack of compromise at play. It's coming from those who feel they shouldn't have to transfer and that a subway is something deserved, rather than built based on actual ridership data and density.

We should just put the TTC and transportation authorities in charge of transit and keep politicians out of it.

 

[syn]

Where are all these riders on EC LRT riders going? Perhaps the vast majority would be transferring onto something else? If that something else doesn't have capacity for an additional 30,000pph (15k eastbound + 15k westbound) going mostly southbound during AM peak, then EC LRT will not be over capacity at any point in the foreseeable future; it's impossible as the fire department will step-in and require trains skip Yonge station.

So, Yonge being at capacity today prevents EC LRT from getting even close to its limit mostly due to Eglinton not having much in the way of actual destinations. The DRL, which offloads Yonge will also offload EC LRT's peak ridership point (near Yonge) too.

EC LRT has sufficient capacity until Eglinton & Yonge has similar levels of employment as Bay & King in the 90's.

Agreed.

Yonge didn't need a subway for 50 years...but Yonge was also the central street in the city, and the busiest too. Only after the streetcar line maxed out did they build a subway.

LRTs at Finch and the other less dense parts of the city should serve those areas well for decades.

 

[OneCity]

Because there are actual facts and context attached to his plans?

Ford didn't compromise at all. He presented a plan that doubled the cost, cut the number of stations and eliminated the possibility of other priority areas receiving any transit upgrades. That isn't compromise in any sense of the word.

Councilors have tried to 'compromise' but Scarborough is demanding a subway...and that includes Scarborough Councilors spreading misinformation. Even with costs rising to ridiculous levels and the plan reduced to just one stop, it must be a subway.

There's certainly a lack of compromise at play. It's coming from those who feel they shouldn't have to transfer and that a subway is something deserved, rather than built based on actual ridership data and density.

We should just put the TTC and transportation authorities in charge of transit and keep politicians out of it.

You neglect to acknowledge Millers plan was Political. There are facts that can be made for both technologies connecting to the BDL and Sheppard stub. The real fact of the matter is that connectivity was not considered at the level the importance the people demand in certain parts of Millers plan. Ill agree Tory's plan is not the right solution but people don't want the transfer LRT plan for many facts. We don't agree on the importance of SCC to Scarborough, the impact of transfers in the current locations, the crappiness of the RT, and the optics of what was built in comparable areas (or less) and never will agree, that's fine but there were ways to compromise on this and move forward in a manner the wasn't so costly.

To say the subway supporters are uncompromising is nonsense? They already compromised on this line with LRT. The only option left would have been a subway on the RT corridor which was my preference but Tory threw a Smarttrack there. So there is no other compromise and were likely going to build a subway whether the opposition cares to participate in the details to make it better for everyone or not. Clearly at this point they dont

Both subway and LRT technologies are more than adequate for capacity and ridership but how are we connecting them to the current network? And what good is a transfer disconnecting from the main transit artery of the City one stop before Scarborough main "growth hub"? Both of items may not be important to you, but are very important to me. And this is why we're here.

Transit City was not all bad. But it wasn't the "evidence based" gift from the transit Gods some opposition Politicians try to claim. Connecting the City in a slightly improved "fair" manner is what the people have clearly requested and should have been "respected" atleast to a point of compromise.

 

[Hopkins123]

I don't know where this idea keeps coming from, the choice was not between the the SSE and the all underground Eglinton LRT connected to the SRT. The choice was between cancelling the Finch, Sheppard and the SRT extention LRT's and putting all that money into the underground Eglinton line, which would have been a massive waste of money that would have only saved a few minutes of travel time to a location where there is already a subway and a GO Train line that travel in the same general direction.

No one would have voted to raise taxes to build anything on Finch.

Oh, please don't remind us how regrettable a mistake has been made not to grade-separate the Crosstown Line east of Brentcliffe while we can.

"would have only saved a few minutes of travel time" is also a fallacy as the average speed of the Crosstown Line east of the tunnel will only be 20-22 km/h versus 31-35 km/hr in the tunnel. If I'm at Kennedy Station and I have a choice between that average speed and the Bloor-Danforth complete grade-separated speeds which can clock in at over 40 km/hr, I think I know which one I'd take to get over to Yonge Street, just saying.

But you and syn have proven a point, surface rail has been around for over 35 years serving the Scarborough Town Centre and it is exceeding it's carrying capacity. The next logical step is to upgrade to heavy rail underground transit just like what was done for the Yonge and Bloor-Danforth streetcar routes.

 

[Hopkins123]

No I didn't, and where is your data to support that claim about Eglinton? I'm not going to go digging for the numbers on this for you, but I remember the long term ridership estimates being well below the lines capacity. And even if did eventually get full there are other corridors where lines could and should get built that would relive Eglinton, such as Lawrence and the Midtown railway corridor.

As for believing that Finch will need a subway, that is the height of absurdity.

Good grief, let's spend multi-billions of dollars on another parallel Lawrence LRT line when we could just fixed the Crosstown Line with grade-separation now while it's still feasible to do so. Then next it will be parallel St Clair East, York Mills/Wilson, Steeles and even McNicoll LRT lines to join whatever becomes of Finch East and Sheppard East. I sincerely hope whichever government is propagating this madness is kicked to the curb in the next election.

 

[Eug]

Oops. Wrong thread. Please delete.

 

[BurlOak]

Good grief, let's spend multi-billions of dollars on another parallel Lawrence LRT line when we could just fixed the Crosstown Line with grade-separation now while it's still feasible to do so

I would guess the point is that if such a major mistake of not grade separating ECLRT is made, it makes it very hard to recover from and the "best" attempt to recover will still look bad.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I would guess the point is that if such a major mistake of not grade separating ECLRT is made, it makes it very hard to recover from and the "best" attempt to recover will still look bad.

It's not like Toronto don't have a history of replacing at grade tracks when necessary.

AoD

 

[OneCity]

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/05/19/torys-subway-to-success

"When it comes to the controversial Scarborough subway extension, 60% of Torontonians are supportive, 20% disapprove and 21% have no opinion, Campaign Research found."

Again just another media poll take it for what it is. But gotta show them all.

60% support for the one stop seems high to me. But after all the elections with a clear vote within Scarborough itself, this sheds some light on the questionable Political strategy going excessively "all in" to push the transfer LRT going into a Municipal election in addition to the unprecedented Provincial support. Seems to do more to keep a Ford figure around more than it does help them have any chance in a Mayoral race.