Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Cobra]

"Cost effective." All of a sudden we're concerned about cost effectiveness in Scarborough transit??? SSE is justified by its advocates on respect and equity for the people of Scarborough, not because its quantifiable benefits even remotely approach its costs.

You're forgetting that shutting down the RT for a minimum of 3 years (best case scenario/wishful thinking) was the main motivation to support the SSE. Pro-LRT councillors who voted subway said it too even if the project sucks after Tory decided to amend it

 

[Cobra]

My favourite is all the 'fiscal-conservatives' who support it.

Tough on government fat, except when it comes to the SSE...

See above

So what's your solution during the RT shutdown? TTC made clear it would be a logistic nightmare they want no part of, and the costs would be staggering to make the shuttle service work

*try not to through the locals under the bus in your solution

 

[OneCity]

My favourite is all the 'fiscal-conservatives' who support it.

Tough on government fat, except when it comes to the SSE...

At this stage when you consider, the inflationary costs which pile up from studying further to try to "save" costs and the drag it will be on other projects it might be the most cost effective thing to do is move forward. I agree this subway plan is not efficient with the lack of stops or the cost of deep boring for one single stop. But when the only alternate options being fought for by the opposition are transfers before the Central node and or an orphan technology from the current City network then we might as well get building and move on. Its unfortunate indeed for all sides and although the costs are high I would imaging that even the LRT line could be pushing $2.5$3B by now. Hopefully they just add a stop or two to the subway after the election and we just move on as delaying will not be fiscally responsible.

 

[Voltz]

See above

So what's your solution during the RT shutdown? TTC made clear it would be a logistic nightmare they want no part of, and the costs would be staggering to make the shuttle service work

*try not to through the locals under the bus in your solution

Really, just when did they make that clear? I don't recall that ever being mentioned, only that that it would take a few extra minutes of travel time by extending a few of the bus routes to Kennedy, probably with a intersection improvements where required, and that the cost for the shuttle was covered in the projects budget.

I did here a few councillors, such as Karen Stints, lying about it and saying that it would be as bad as a sudden subway shutdown shuttle.

 

[Cobra]

Really, just when did they make that clear? I don't recall that ever being mentioned, only that that it would take a few extra minutes of travel time by extending a few of the bus routes to Kennedy, probably with a intersection improvements where required, and that the cost for the shuttle was covered in the projects budget.

I did here a few councillors, such as Karen Stints, lying about it and saying that it would be as bad as a sudden subway shutdown shuttle.

I happen to stream Transit Council meetings live when I'm at work. The "few minutes" you're referring to is absolute best case scenario ( doesn't accoun't for waether conditions, accidents or incidents) that are much more likely to happen then in a dedicated transit ROW. Byford showed little confidence in their ability to move that many people all those years which he described as a logistic nightmare. Mihevc himself said that shutting down the RT and putting all those people on shuttle buses was the main reason why he voted subway the first time.

Intersection Improvement? Where's the city track record proving that they are trusted to act promptly on that. Priority signals for transit is the exception, not the norm in Toronto.

Again, I don't see the point of arguing here. When Ford proposed the Scarborough-Crosstown, people should have put their ego aside and take it. Subway happening today is mainly those councillors, media and pro-LRT advocate that wouldn't accept a viable compromise just to stick it to Ford.

Oh well... I'm awaiting people saying that Ford did it first and Tory did it worst.

The focus should be on maximizing that extension by bringing back Lawrence East Station and eliminate Smarttrack Lawrence East Station

 

[kEiThZ]

You're forgetting that shutting down the RT for a minimum of 3 years (best case scenario/wishful thinking) was the main motivation to support the SSE. Pro-LRT councillors who voted subway said it too even if the project sucks after Tory decided to amend it

People really forget this. None of these councillors wanted to be in office when the public got super pissed at them for shutting down the RT for 3 years. And I doubt it'd be any different if say the the TTC proposed a 3 year long shut down of the Sheppard Subway or Yonge from say Finch to York Mills, etc.

 

[BurlOak]

Don't kid yourself, there would be a fair number of residents who will make a stink about it too.

I always point out the STC area is the most popular part of the SRT and its adjacent to the elevated line.
The ECLRT was to be in median at black creek drive and residence pushed for elevated.

Barrie GO debate would have been so much smoother if a St. Claire stop was added. There is big money to be saved with elevation, so have stations every 1 km, compared to 2 km for underground. Still cheaper overall, less complaints and more access.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The design for the bus terminal has been released, and it isn't good: http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/07/blue-snake-first-look-upcoming-scarborough-centre-subway-station

Due to its incredible length of 400+ metres, and its placement relative to the station box, TTC customers will have to, once at terminal level, walk a distance of up to 223 metres to get to their buses. This takes about 2.7 minutes to walk (160 seconds). Assuming it takes 60 seconds to get from platform level to bus terminal level, total time from the subway train to the bus bay will take up to 3.7 minutes.

This is appears to be the single longest transfer on the subway system. Which is deeply ironic, since the entire point of the SSE was to eliminate an inconvenient transfer.

To compare the subway and the LRT plan, the subway now appears to leave commuters with a less convenient that is either as slow or slower than the LRT transfer would have been

Commuters travelling directly to Scarborough Town Centre (the mall) will have to walk from platform level to street level (with a vertical elevation significantly larger than the LRT offfered) and cross part of the existing STC parking lot. They'll then have to cross Borough Drive, likely at a signalized intersection (adding even more waiting time). And if you really want to nitpick, once inside the mall they'll have to cross the cineplex complex to get into the shops.

The LRT would've required a short climb down to ground level, and the station would've connected directly to the mall.

Commuters transferring from subway platform level to TTC busses will face up to a 3.7 minute (222 second) walk to their buses.

Conversely, commuters would have had to wait up to 139 seconds for the LRT, plus perhaps another 60 to 90 seconds of walking from the Scarborough Centre LRT platform to the bus platforms. So a transfer time of up to 222 seconds for the subway vs a transfer time of about 199 to 229 seconds for the LRT plan.

And of course, passengers that would've used Lawrence East, Midland, Centennial or Sheppard Stations face significantly longer travel times since their buses need to all travel to Scarborough Centre.

Irony aside, this will also have significantly negative ramifications for the ridership of this line. Passengers are already averse to transfers, and 3.5 minutes is worse than all TTC transfers, obviously discouraging use of this transit line.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why didn't the put the bus platform on top of the station? Or parallel? Anyone know?

Also, why is the bus platform so large? Is it bigger than what is at STC today?

I actually don't think it's that bad. Because I think all the TTC bus bays will be closer to the stations centre. I think you'll see the GO and DRT bays further out.

 

[Rainforest]

"Cost effective." All of a sudden we're concerned about cost effectiveness in Scarborough transit??? SSE is justified by its advocates on respect and equity for the people of Scarborough, not because its quantifiable benefits even remotely approach its costs.

Cost effectiveness is never the main concern in public transit design. Scarborough isn't an exception.

If cost effectiveness was treated as the main design factor, then:

- The fares would depend on the distance traveled. Long crosstown trips will never be cost-effective in the flat fare system.

- Most of non-arterial bus routes, with 15 or fewer riders per trip on average, would be cancelled. They can't be cost effective with any fare system.

- The blue night routes would be either cancelled, or charge considerably higher fares than the regular routes.

 

[BurlOak]

If cost effectiveness was treated as the main design factor, then:

- The fares would depend on the distance traveled. Long crosstown trips will never be cost-effective in the flat fare system.

Either they're not cost effective with flat fare, or they're not taken with fair-by-distance. Either we lose a bit of money, or people drive. We likely lose a lot on metro passes too. People who exclusively use transitvare also not cost effective.

 

[narduch]

The design for the bus terminal has been released, and it isn't good: http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/07/blue-snake-first-look-upcoming-scarborough-centre-subway-station

Due to its incredible length of 400+ metres, and its placement relative to the station box, TTC customers will have to, once at terminal level, walk a distance of up to 223 metres to get to their buses. This takes about 2.7 minutes to walk (160 seconds). Assuming it takes 60 seconds to get from platform level to bus terminal level, total time from the subway train to the bus bay will take up to 3.7 minutes.

This is appears to be the single longest transfer on the subway system. Which is deeply ironic, since the entire point of the SSE was to eliminate an inconvenient transfer.

To compare the subway and the LRT plan, the subway now appears to leave commuters with a less convenient that is either as slow or slower than the LRT transfer would have been

Commuters travelling directly to Scarborough Town Centre (the mall) will have to walk from platform level to street level (with a vertical elevation significantly larger than the LRT offfered) and cross part of the existing STC parking lot. They'll then have to cross Borough Drive, likely at a signalized intersection (adding even more waiting time). And if you really want to nitpick, once inside the mall they'll have to cross the cineplex complex to get into the shops.

The LRT would've required a short climb down to ground level, and the station would've connected directly to the mall.

Commuters transferring from subway platform level to TTC busses will face up to a 3.7 minute (222 second) walk to their buses.

Conversely, commuters would have had to wait up to 139 seconds for the LRT, plus perhaps another 60 to 90 seconds of walking from the Scarborough Centre LRT platform to the bus platforms. So a transfer time of up to 222 seconds for the subway vs a transfer time of about 199 to 229 seconds for the LRT plan.

And of course, passengers that would've used Lawrence East, Midland, Centennial or Sheppard Stations face significantly longer travel times since their buses need to all travel to Scarborough Centre.

Irony aside, this will also have significantly negative ramifications for the ridership of this line. Passengers are already averse to transfers, and 3.5 minutes is worse than all TTC transfers, obviously discouraging use of this transit line.

This is a great analysis of the bus terminal. Thanks.

The big question now is how badly will it affect ridership?

 

[cplchanb]

This is a great analysis of the bus terminal. Thanks.

The big question now is how badly will it affect ridership?

at this point people are really just trying to extract water from an empty barrel in vain attempt to deride what is already in the process. I
dont think an extra few second will detract from the ridership. people need to get from pt a to b and if there is only 1 connection to it theyll make their way to it.
If youre thinking 200m is far trying transferring between lines in taipei and hk....400+m up and down stairs and dips just to get to the next line, yet there are no decreases in
ridership. People are just too sensitive these days over here

 

[Cobra]

People pet peeves was transferring trains on the same direction at Kennedy, not how long it takes them to reach their train from the bus bay. We're just nitpicking here...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

at this point people are really just trying to extract water from an empty barrel in vain attempt to deride what is already in the process.

There's decades of research on the effect of transfers on rapid transit usage. This isn't a phenomena that was made up yesterday.

I dont think an extra few second will detract from the ridership. people need to get from pt a to b and if there is only 1 connection to it theyll make their way to it.

Whether or not it detracts from the ridership depends on what transfer situation the planners assumed when modelling the line. Keesmaat herself has talked extensively about the impacts that walkability/ease of transfers/station death can have on transit usage.

Furthermore, it should be emphasized that there are no captives to transit. People can take another route, drive, carpool, get family to drive them or simply deny a job offer, if they deem transit to be too inconvenient for them.

If youre thinking 200m is far trying transferring between lines in taipei and hk....400+m up and down stairs and dips just to get to the next line, yet there are no decreases in ridership.

And how do you know that? Do you have an alternate universe where a more continent transfer exists?

So long as those lines in Taipei and Hk have the capacity to accept additional riders, the line ridership would certainly go up if the transfers were more convenient. That's what decades of research indicates.