Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Streety McCarface]

I'm not sure that's the case - the project was only unveiled a year ago.

I don't think the costs associated with going into pre-sales, along with the damage to their reputation would warrant cancelling the whole thing and launching something else.

Regardless, the Vaughan subway (Hwy 407 and VMC) is a completely different from every other subway extension since the spadina extension because it served no existing demand. The extension to Sheppard West served a huge transit market up there, the Sheppard subway replaced a section of the busiest bus route in the city at the time, the SSE will replace the SRT and serve a huge number of buses in Scarborough, the DRL and RLN will serve huge transit markets of the downtown streetcars, and suburban bus lines, the Crosstown Light Rail Subway will replace 2 of the busiest bus routes in Canada (Eglinton west and east, as well as a section of Lawrence East). All these lines had existing ridership demand of some sort. Vaughan literally had one or two bus routes with pathetic ridership going to Sheppard West. It should have not been built based on that assumption alone (at least not without paying into the TTC). The "build it and they will come" narrative does work, but it should never be the basis of building a subway. It should be treated as a bonus to what the subway is initially supposed to do. Nothing more.

 

[hw621]

I'm not sure that's the case - the project was only unveiled a year ago.

I don't think the costs associated with going into pre-sales, along with the damage to their reputation would warrant cancelling the whole thing and launching something else.

It was sold out though, so it's hard to argue it was a demand issue.

 

[Hopkins123]

Dundas West is a planned community around a subway station?

Are you one of the basement dwellers you're referring to? If so you might want to get out and take a look around. Roncesvalles, The Junction and High Park didn't just pop up after the subway arrived lol.

I live in a high-rise. You do ever tire of being wrong? Bloor and High Park, circa 1953:

Where's all the apartment buildings, syn?

And I was referring to the existing Crossways @Dundas West. Not to mention the planned community that's coming to that neighbourhood very soon:



Yay! Vindication!

 

[Hopkins123]

Scarborough Town Centre has not had a newly completed residential building since 2007, and although there are several zoning approvals around, none appear to be anywhere close to starting construction.

I probably wouldn't attribute the two failed projects in VMC to a bad market - more likely just incompetent developers. Gupta has cancelled / sold projects before without completing them, and Liberty Development Group is known for it's risky financing strategies and odd brokerage connections and sales strategies.

Centrecourt is having a wildly profitable time with it's Transit City project in VMC - 1,700 units that sold out essentially as soon as they could put them on the market. The project is the highlight project of the 2017 GTA condo market.

Yes, but why would developers choose not to build at SCC given all the evidence that some form of rapid transit (subway, LRT, swan boats) will be expanded there in the foreseeable future? For all we know even a bigger development could occur at VMC replacing the condo project that was cancelled.

 

[raptor]

FYI, SCC has had rapid transit for the past 33 years.
"Build it and they will come" argument does not apply there.

 

[Leo_Chan]

FYI, SCC has had rapid transit for the past 33 years.
"Build it and they will come" argument does not apply there.

You already know what the response will be from this statement.

 

[raptor]

You already know what the response will be from this statement.

I know, I'm preaching to the choir

 

[Rainforest]

The main goal of SSE is to better serve the existing transit riders.

Additional density is a potential bonus. If it materializes, great. If not, the existing riders will still be better off with the longer subway.

 

[raptor]

The main goal of SSE is to better serve the existing transit riders.

Additional density is a potential bonus. If it materializes, great. If not, the existing riders will still be better off with the longer subway.

By "better", you mean, put them on a bus for 30 minutes eastbound to SCC, then walk 8 mins to the subway, then take a long subway ride? give me a break

 

[Rainforest]

By "better", you mean, put them on a bus for 30 minutes eastbound to SCC, then walk 8 mins to the subway, then take a long subway ride? give me a break

Today, you put them for 30 min on the bus, then walk to SRT, ride to Kennedy, walk to the subway, then take a long subway ride. Lots of fun if you like to explore transit systems, but most of the riders just want to get to their destination faster.

 

[OneCity]

FYI, SCC has had rapid transit for the past 33 years.
"Build it and they will come" argument does not apply there.

And what did they build? A poorly aligned, poorly connected, and poorly maintained stand alone rapid transit. Development applications are already staring to come in since the subway was announced. Shocking.

 

[Streety McCarface]

By "better", you mean, put them on a bus for 30 minutes eastbound to SCC, then walk 8 mins to the subway, then take a long subway ride? give me a break

Again, the best solution is staggering bus terminals at McCowan/Sheppard, STC, and Danforth/Lawrence. Those three stops can serve at least 8 bus routes each, probably more if new routes are added as a result of the subway. Even with the current plan, it's still better for everyone except those at Lawrence because the majority of buses head to the STC anyways. Point: people already take a bus for 30 minutes to the STC, the subway attempts to improve their commute by speeding up their trip from the STC to everywhere else in the system. Whether it does that or not with the current plan, no one can really be sure, but with the original plan, bus routes from the STC and Kennedy would have been diverted away from those stations, making access to the subway, for many, much easier. With this plan, there is also no need for an insane 30-bay bus terminal, so a giant transfer from the bus to the subway is no longer necessary. (With the exception of a potential new interregional bus terminal, but this will probably be moved to Sheppard east under the original plan).

 

[syn]

I live in a high-rise. You do ever tire of being wrong? Bloor and High Park, circa 1953:

Where's all the apartment buildings, syn?

And I was referring to the existing Crossways @Dundas West. Not to mention the planned community that's coming to that neighbourhood very soon:



Yay! Vindication!

Do you ever tire of the, dare I say, trolling?

That's a picture of a house. Here's a picture just west of High Park on Bloor in 1920- the subway opened just behind these buildings, nearly 50 years later.

The buildings on the right still exist.

Here is Dundas & Roncesvalles, looking north towards Bloor in 1912 (54 years before Dundas West opened)

The point, which you missed, is that areas like Roncesvalles, the Junction and the High Park area were already established neighbourhoods on a walkable, urban grid with a mix of commercial and residential activity. They were already serviced by busy streetcar routes (including the busiest streetcar line in the city before it was replaced by the Bloor Danforth line).

They weren't 'planned' communities that sprung up thanks to a subway being built.

The original point still stands, unless of course you'd like to post another picture of a house.

 

[syn]

Regardless, the Vaughan subway (Hwy 407 and VMC) is a completely different from every other subway extension since the spadina extension because it served no existing demand. The extension to Sheppard West served a huge transit market up there, the Sheppard subway replaced a section of the busiest bus route in the city at the time, the SSE will replace the SRT and serve a huge number of buses in Scarborough, the DRL and RLN will serve huge transit markets of the downtown streetcars, and suburban bus lines, the Crosstown Light Rail Subway will replace 2 of the busiest bus routes in Canada (Eglinton west and east, as well as a section of Lawrence East). All these lines had existing ridership demand of some sort. Vaughan literally had one or two bus routes with pathetic ridership going to Sheppard West. It should have not been built based on that assumption alone (at least not without paying into the TTC).

That's a good point. Definitely not an example of how things should be done.

The "build it and they will come" narrative does work, but it should never be the basis of building a subway. It should be treated as a bonus to what the subway is initially supposed to do. Nothing more.

Well, generally speaking history demonstrates that it doesn't work - certainly not to any degree that justifies the initial investment, especially when there's other more pressing needs.

The problem with extensions like the TYSSE and the SSE is that they are being largely justified on future growth. There is no business case for the SSE based on actual ridership, density and demand.

 

[syn]

October surprise.

Matt Elliott@GraphicMatt
3 mins ago
According to a @jpags report from earlier this year, TTC staff expected to have an updated cost projection for the Scarborough subway in September. It’s September.

(But there are no plans to report this number until after the election.)

September 2019?