innsertnamehere
Superstar
considering you can get from Kennedy to downtown on the GO in 19 minutes, it is extremely fast.
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
The issue is not that people can't do it but rather due to complete non-integration of the 2 systems, they can't afford to.
There is no reason whatsoever why the SRT shouldn't just be improved to handle MK11 trains at a fraction of the price and a fraction of the time.
There is no reason whatsoever why the SRT shouldn't just be improved to handle MK11 trains at a fraction of the price and a fraction of the time.
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
It's been explained a few times why Toronto is not going with Mark II's, so you can spend time searching for the answer. It just seems a waste to explain it again.
BurlOak
Senior Member
It is not that difficult of an explanation. It seems David Miller and the left of Council made the decision to go with LRT, and the provincial Liberal government also invested political capital in this decision. They are very reluctant to change their minds. But it seems that minds have changed in the past little while. . . . . .
It does seem rather strange:
1) Putting aside Sheppard, in 2010 Mayor Ford wanted to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway to STC.
2)Presumably it was Metrolinx or the province that told Ford that the vehicles had already been ordered and this subway extension option was off the table. (I doubt Ford really knows or cares what is the difference between HRT, LRT or Skytrain, as long as they don’t interfere with traffic). The Ford-Province agreement from early 2011 then became; LRT must be used, and it would be the SRT connected with the ECLRT – all underground on Eglinton.
3)Then in 2012, City council voted to reinstate the old Transit City plan of having SRT and ECLRT as separate and having the Scarborough portion of ECLRT in the median.
4)Now in 2013, it seems that we are going back to Ford’s original plan to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway to STC.
So my questions are:
a)Why did Metrolinx/Province not agree to the subway extension plan back in 2010 when the Mayor first wanted to change the plan?
b)Why did the TTC Commission and Chair not push for the subway plan in 2011?
c)Why did City Council not push for the subway extension plan in 2012?
d)Will Metrolinx, since it is beyond the scope of what a City Councillor or Mayor should know, propose an elevated transit line through Scarborough to satisfy the desire for a grade-separated transit line to STC, but still retain much of the approved EA route?
e)Will Metrolinx, since it is beyond the scope of what a City Councillor or Mayor should know, propose switching the rolling stock to SkyTrain (Mark II, ALRT) so that the SRT closure will be an acceptable duration?
f)At the end of the day, who will be blamed for the delay in transit construction in Toronto; the Mayor, the TTC Chair, City Council, Metrolinx or the Provincial Liberals?
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kd86
New Member
I find it strange that were resorting back to the BD extension, which I'v been against from day one. This project will not add any additional km of rapid transit to Toronto. Its too bad political influences gets in the way of common sense in this city. The scarborough-eglinton crosstown should of been developed as a regional line from the beginning, using skytrain technology. The Miller and Ford era has really screwed things up in this city.
Silence&Motion
Senior Member
Apologies in advance, because I'm sure this has been addressed already (though I couldn't find it):
I remember in pre-Transit City discussions one of the big concerns was that ridership at Scarborough Town Centre was becoming too high for the RT to accommodate and there were suggestions that upgrading to a subway was inevitable in order to handle the growing condo population in the area. Is this no longer a concern? Has ridership not grown as expected? Can LRTs handle significantly more passengers than the existing RT? I've been seeing a lot of discussion about (1) cost, (2) transfers, and (3) construction time, but not ridership capacity.
I remember in pre-Transit City discussions one of the big concerns was that ridership at Scarborough Town Centre was becoming too high for the RT to accommodate and there were suggestions that upgrading to a subway was inevitable in order to handle the growing condo population in the area. Is this no longer a concern? Has ridership not grown as expected? Can LRTs handle significantly more passengers than the existing RT? I've been seeing a lot of discussion about (1) cost, (2) transfers, and (3) construction time, but not ridership capacity.
rbt
Senior Member
I can't speak to the rest, but the answer to this question is yes. Capacity will be double to triple the existing SRT. With TTC growing 2% to 3% per year, this would last a long time.
TTC of course will not run excess vehicles, just as Sheppard runs lower frequencies.
If built as a subway, I wouldn't be surprised if was triple platformed to make it a turnback point as a preparation step for automated Bloor/Danforth trains at 90 second intervals.
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EnviroTO
Senior Member
I don't know what Miller has to do with it. Using ART vehicles on the SRT in the first place never made sense. LRT or subway on the route with a fleet common to what is being used on many other routes, especially off the shelf vehicles which any LRT manufacturer can provide, makes sense. I think the reason LRT makes sense is that it meets requirements with an off the shelf vehicle type, and the reason subway makes sense is that it is part of a larger network and Scarborough without a subway would be the only Places To Grow center in Toronto without a subway meanwhile two competing Places To Grow centers in York Region would be able to lure business with their subway.
Michael62
Active Member
Is is possible to move the tunnel boring machines Torkie and Yorkie to do the tunnelling for the B-D extension to Scarborough, could save a few million dollars in equipment costs?
nfitz
Superstar
No, they would need rehabilitation and spare parts. And as Caterpiller has decided to put the Toronto manufacturer of these TBMs out of business, this is no longer an option.
Bamako
New Member
TBMs are practically the cheapest part of making a subway. Land acquisition and engineering costs are orders of magnitude more.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
There would also have to be a few extra trains bought for an extension.
Forgotten
Active Member
So let me get this straight. From what I've gleamed from online sources they want to spend up to 1 billion extra dollars on something that doesn't expand the rapid transit map in Scarborough at all and the only arguments for are:
a) Anything less than a subway means "condemning" and "dooming" everyone in Scarborough to waiting out in the cold for buses until the end of time (how a subway changes that????)
b) An imagined and perceived slight against residents of the east end (being treated as "second class") if they don't get the biggest and most expensive shiny toys like their big brother.
c) The people are apparently princesses who are too precious to endure the hardship of walking down one set of steps to transfer.
A billion dollars because people don't know where Agincourt station is? For that much extra money you could dig the LRT tunnel to Malvern and Morningside Heights. It sounds like fuck the people of Centennial and the people in Malvern because hey they don't whine loud enough to matter. Did I get that right?
On the political leadership front: The mayor has promised for almost three years to get more subways in Scarborough (by a plan of rejecting all taxes and getting someone else to pay for it) and has given the city manager two weeks to work this out; While other politicians are holding the rest of the city hostage and won't approve transit taxes until they get to waste 1 billion in their neighbourhood first. This city is doomed.
drum118
Superstar
We already know the the SRT is only carrying a fraction of riders today because it lacks equipment.
Having the subway going to Steeles by STC will handle the pent-up demand for better transit in Scarborough now and the future.
Even if subway or LRT get to STC, the poor folks in Malvern are still without rapid transit that was promise to them in the 80's.
In fact, I saw the subway going Hwy 7 far back as 2006.
You are moving not loosing any of the existing stations by building the subway extension up Markham Rd to STC and then swing it over to McCowan to Steeles, with provision to go north to Hwy 7 at a future date.
By using the existing corridor of the SRT for LRT, you can use it as branch lines with various lines splitting off at various location. It opens up a whole range of new markets to service as well better service than what there is today.
I don't trust Metrolinx numbers and they are playing their famous games without a lack of vision for Scarborough.
Having the subway going to Steeles by STC will handle the pent-up demand for better transit in Scarborough now and the future.
Even if subway or LRT get to STC, the poor folks in Malvern are still without rapid transit that was promise to them in the 80's.
In fact, I saw the subway going Hwy 7 far back as 2006.
You are moving not loosing any of the existing stations by building the subway extension up Markham Rd to STC and then swing it over to McCowan to Steeles, with provision to go north to Hwy 7 at a future date.
By using the existing corridor of the SRT for LRT, you can use it as branch lines with various lines splitting off at various location. It opens up a whole range of new markets to service as well better service than what there is today.
I don't trust Metrolinx numbers and they are playing their famous games without a lack of vision for Scarborough.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Exactly. Go to McCown Steeles and stop the games.