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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

The RT's route makes far more sense. Perhaps we can get an LRT from Midland to Markham and Sheppard with an interchange station at the current McCowan stn at an extension of the BD line, as that's how far away the Subway station would be. The RT would remain for local travel from Malvern to Centenniel, STC, and the Subway and vice-versa. If the RT were extended to Malvern Town Centre it could be a successful route from Midland Station connecting to the Bloor subway at McCowan then on to MTC. With a new station at Brimley.

With a Sheppard LRT spur SOUTH on Midland or Brimely and EAST along the SRT routing to Markham and Sheppard where it can turn back WEST to Don Mills, leaving the least used portions of the line at Midland and MTC with slightly less service.

If only we had the money.

What I'm proposing is a set up very similar to the one we already have, only the RT would pass through the interchange station rather than turning back. I think the development potential and ridership would be very great
 
When calculating projected ridership, transportation modellers include a 10-minute "transfer penalty" when a rider changes from one route to another. This is based upon solid research in to how riders perceive the effect of a transfer (having to transfer is see as equivalent to having to spend an extra 10 minutes on a vehicle). On top of this, they add the average wait time which, for the SRT, is 2.5 minutes.

So there is an important burden of proof for people who argue that LRT is a superior choice (not that it's an affordable choice) that the LRT option offers 12.5 minutes in travel time benefits (for comparison, the travel time from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre today is 11 minutes). And not just for Centennial College and Malvern residents, but for current SRT users as a whole.
 
Many numbers have been cited for the cost of the LRT and subway proposals. At one point, the subway was pegged at over $3-billion, but this included provision for a new yard and expansion of the subway fleet. Neither of these is needed for an extension of the Danforth subway as I discussed in a previous article. In January 2013, the subway estimate was set at $2.8b by the TTC in 2011$, but quite recently they have discovered that this value included inflation. When that is corrected, the subway is down to $2.3b.

The same January 2013 report claimed that the LRT line would cost $2.3b, and this led to the claim by subway supporters that their option would only cost half a billion more. (That was when the subway still cost $2.8b.) However, the LRT estimate included $500m for its own carhouse and yard, a leftover from the plan when Mark II Skytrain technology was on the table. Correcting for this brings the LRT line down to $1.8b. This also happens to be the Metrolinx estimate (in 2010$) for the project.

So far, we have the commonly reported half-billion dollar spread ($1.8b vs $2.3b). The fact that both estimates were off by a huge amount might give one pause in believing any of the numbers in this debate, especially considering the importance of the discussions for which the original estimates were prepared.

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=8024

and...

When my mother, who lives in Gary Crawford’s ward, sent him an e-mail a couple of years ago asking him to support the Transit City plan, he sent back a boilerplate e-mail making that “Scarborough deserves a subway because everyone else has one” argument, signing off with “My Toronto includes Scarborough.”

In other words, the “but his piece of subway is bigger than mine” narrative has been sold to Scarborough residents, and very successfully … but it didn’t originate with us and we don’t all buy it, by any means.
this is the mentality from city council we are fighting!
 
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CDL.TO said:
When calculating projected ridership, transportation modellers include a 10-minute "transfer penalty" when a rider changes from one route to another. This is based upon solid research in to how riders perceive the effect of a transfer (having to transfer is see as equivalent to having to spend an extra 10 minutes on a vehicle). On top of this, they add the average wait time which, for the SRT, is 2.5 minutes.
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The large majority of people arrive at SCC by a small number of bus routes. If we have an extra $500M to $1B to spend on Scarborough transit, extending the LRT north of Sheppard on 2 or 3 branches is a better option than converting Sheppard to Kennedy into subway.

People going to SCC get a 1 seat ride. With the subway a transfer would likely be added as routes will probably go to Sheppard Station, not SCC.

People going downtown will have 1 transfer (LRT to subway). With subway to Sheppard, people going downtown will have 1 transfer (bus to subway). The LRT option should be the more reliable option for riders originating north of Sheppard; with no difference (reliability wise) south of Sheppard.

I would like to see the city prepare a business case for these 2 options (equal spend on both options). Subway may provide better value per dollar spent but it isn't at all obvious this is the case, particularly if Markham is willing to extend LRT up to Centennial and Markham GO stations from Steeles.


Municipal workers who live on Danforth or downtown and work at SCC are still penalized with a transfer. It's actually my belief that this group is driving much of the demand for the subway; they benefit the most, are in a place to make their opinions known, and may unintentionally apply bias to information collected from residents.


If we don't have extra $500M to $1B to spend; then there is no question that LRT to Sheppard is the better option.
 
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rbt said:
With the $500M to $1B in additional funds being talked about, the LRT to Steeles along the 3 major north/south streets would be built in a more reliable configuration than the current bus routes and both methods involve a transfer (LRT to Subway at Kennedy, or Bus to Subway at Sheppard).

Today if I'm waiting at Steeles and McCowan Road for a bus, I take Steeles East to Finch because catching the 129 didn't work very well the couple of times I've tried. I don't see how terminating at Sheppard instead of SCC fixes that.


To be honest, the first thing in Scarborough that I would buy is a sidewalk on Meadowvale Road north of Old Finch. Crossing that steel bridge on foot is hazardous in the best of weather. There are a ton of tiny things that make that area hostile to pedestrians and nearly all transit users are pedestrians at some point in their trip.
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What? If you're waiting at Steeles and McCowan, a subway extension to Sheppard/McCowan is actually the most favourable solution for any downtown bound commuter. And indeed the loads on the 129 show that your experience is rather atypical.

For a billion here's what I would do: build the BD extension to STC. Build bus lanes on as many major avenues as possible. That would meet nearly all of Scarborough's needs.

I wouldn't be too worried or rushed about building a sidewalk at Old Finch/Meadowvale. Really, there are better places in Scarborough itself to spend sidewalk money on.... I know. I jog around there.
 
Voltz said:
If extra money is going to be spent on the SRT corridor I'd rather it be on extending the SRT up to Finch or even Steeles than a subway to Sheppard, You are going to have a hard time convincing me that the time saved by eliminating that transfer at Kennedy outweighs the time saved by the SRT covering a larger area. Getting from Finch and Neilson to Sheppard and McCowan by bus would take a while and so does getting from Centennial College to STC by bus.
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I live at Finch and Neilson (actually at Staines). Extending the SRT to Steeles is not possible with the routing planned. And were they to actually go to Finch, I'd support it. But they won't. They will go to Sheppard. At the edge of Malvern. This means, instead of a 35 minute bus ride to STC, I'll have a 25 minute bus ride to Sheppard/Progress SRT and a slightly longer SRT ride. Really, the time savings really doesn't make up for the pain in the rear that the transfer is.

Alternatively, here's what would improve transit in Scarborough: bus lanes. Bus lanes on McCowan, Sheppard, Markham, Warden, Kennedy, Ellesmere, Finch. Etc. would actually offer the largest improvement in transit experience for the average rider. I would gladly take a subway to STC (not Sheppard) with the rest spent on bus lanes over an LRT from Kennedy to Finch.

Or even more broadly, here's my vision for Toronto. Expand GO rail. A GO rail stop in Malvern integrated with TTC fares and service would do more for commuters than the LRT to Finch ever could. That billion would really go further being spent on GO than it would on LRT.

I get that orthodoxy does not allow people to waiver at all. But most riders are bright enough to be skeptical when the city wants to spend billions to knock off 10 minutes off their commute. They can see when their interests are not being served. And now the politicians are waking up to the fact that riders who happen to be voters will be ticked if they have to take a bus for half a decade, see their taxes go up, only to end up with the same transfer and mere minutes off their commute.
 
Something a lot people seem to be ignoring too in this discussion is the impact on Southwestern Scarborough. This might finally force the planners to make Eglinton a through line at Kennedy running right through to Kingston/Eglinton. Southwestern Scarborough residents really got a raw deal with the ECLRT turning north to replace the SRT.
 
kEiThZ said:
Or even more broadly, here's my vision for Toronto. Expand GO rail. A GO rail stop in Malvern integrated with TTC fares and service would do more for commuters than the LRT to Finch ever could. That billion would really go further being spent on GO than it would on LRT.
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I agree. The GO service currently provided in Scarborough is superior to almost all TTC services provided in overlapping locations. LSE & Stoufville Lincolnville train lines to Union, GO bus STC to York U, Yorkdale, Centennial College, Durham College. UTSC, to Yonge and Finch. If Scarborough could redirect some of the tax $ given to TTC over to Go to beef up and expand these services that would be the way to go or they need to improve the links between existing TTC and GO services and have co-fares negotiated. At the very least they could install Presto taps devices at the TTC entrance at STC. There's a GO bus terminal right below!
 
Either way this extension is not the best bang for their buck, and does nothing to relieve the already existing system. Not only would a GO system do that, but be much faster being expresslike over long distances.
 
M II A II R II K said:
Either way this extension is not the best bang for their buck, and does nothing to relieve the already existing system. Not only would a GO system do that, but be much faster being expresslike over long distances.
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It doesn't relieve the existing system, but it does stop it from getting any worse. Transit in Scarborough once the SRT's wheels fall off (figuratively, or perhaps one day even literally) would be even more hellish than it is now.

But yes, the best thing Scarborough can push for is an acceleration of the electrification of the Lakeshore GO line (already in Metrolinx's Next Wave), and for the electrification of the Stouffville line as well. I'm surprised no politician has jumped on that bandwagon. If properly explained, I would imagine it would have near-universal support.
 
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