Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Conrad Black]

I'm amazing at the prices they are looking at for subway or LRT. Why so much?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm amazing at the prices they are looking at for subway or LRT. Why so much?

Environmental factors, conservative labor rules, safety regulations etc...

 

[M II A II R II K]

TTC, Metrolinx to debate disputed subway costs

Read More: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/07/01/toronto-metrolinx-meeting.html


The TTC and Metrolinx are set to square off this morning over disputed costs regarding the future of plans to replace the aging Scarborough rapid transit line. Both sides are scheduled to meet after disagreeing on costs for the proposal to convert the Scarborough RT to a subway, with the TTC projecting the expenses would be about half as much as the nearly $1-billion estimate Metrolinx has provided.

- The city now says that the subway proposal — in which Bloor-Danforth line would be extended to Scarborough Centre and Sheppard Avenue — would cost $2.3 billion. The TTC argues that's just $500 million more than the light rail plan; Metrolinx says the additional costs would actually mean an extra $923 million.

- But city councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, who represents one of two Scarborough Centre wards, begs to differ. He considers the letter from McCuaig to actually be a positive sign that the province is seriously considering the switch over to subways.

- McCuaig told Metro Morning that the TTC is understimating the magnitude of already-incurred "sunk costs" associated with transferring an LRT plan to a subway project.

According to McCuaig, those expenses include:

- About $85 million already spent on the LRT project that can't be recovered.

- Renegotiation of a signed contract with Bombardier to deliver 48 vehicles for the Scarborough project.

- A redesign of the Kennedy subway station to make it compatible with a subway extension.

- A capital investment of $60 million to maintain the SRT for about five years.

- Dismantling the existing elevated LRT line that would no longer be used for a subway.

.....

 

[BurlOak]

It would most likely end up being less expensive than the subway conversion option. Just look at the cost of the Union-Pearson elevated guideway. It's something like $50 million/km. Naturally, the design specs need to be different, and the biggest cost associated with elevated LRT is the stations. Since they need to be 90m platforms, the cost of doing an elevated station wouldn't be significantly less than doing an underground station. Canada Line platforms are 30m I believe, so that's why their stations are so much less expensive. The Evergreen Line stations are probably a better baseline to use, because I believe their platforms are around 90m as well.

Now having said that, since it would be elevated, the stop spacing could be further apart, so elevated stations would only be needed at Wynford, Bermondsey, Victoria Park, Warden, and Birchmount, with the elevated station at Kennedy being there regardless of which plan is chosen. If each station costs $150 million more to do elevated than at-grade, you're looking at an additional $750 million to elevate (that's assuming that the per km cost of doing at-grade track is roughly equal to doing elevated track).

From a Vancouver website: http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2012/10/skytrain-evergreen-line-moving-full-forward-for-2016-arrival/

The Evergreen Line platforms are the same length as the Expo and Millennium Lines, at 80-metres in length they are twice the length of the Canada Line’s short platforms. With Translink’s direct involvement, rather than a public-private partnership, more attention has been given to the design of the system to ensure that it can fulfill the capacity demands of the future. However, safe and modest station architectural designs will remain given the high costs of constructing architecturally-unique stations like those of the Millennium Line. The modestly designed elevated stations of the Canada Line in Richmond, half the length of the proposed Evergreen Line stations, cost between $25 to 30-million to construct per station.

I would say your estimate for station cost is overly conservative - maybe by a factor of 2 or more.

 

[snowystar]

Canada Line platforms are 30m I believe, so that's why their stations are so much less expensive. The Evergreen Line stations are probably a better baseline to use, because I believe their platforms are around 90m as well.

Canada Line platform underground stations are all built to 50m, with only 40m opened for some stations. Elevated and at-grade stations (except airport) are 40m and can be expanded to 50m. The airport station is 50m.

Evergreen Line stations will be at least 80m expandable to 100m (some are a bit closer to 90m by looking from the drawings), except Lougheed Station, which will be 120m.

Lincoln station, which is an elevated, single-entrance, side platform station with 80m platform built on top of a mall parking lot, cost 28M to construct.

 

[gweed123]

From a Vancouver website: http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2012/10/skytrain-evergreen-line-moving-full-forward-for-2016-arrival/

I would say your estimate for station cost is overly conservative - maybe by a factor of 2 or more.

I think the $25-$30 million you bolded was the cost for the Canada Line stations, not the Evergreen Line stations, unless I'm reading that wrong.

Canada Line platform underground stations are all built to 50m, with only 40m opened for some stations. Elevated and at-grade stations (except airport) are 40m and can be expanded to 50m. The airport station is 50m.

Evergreen Line stations will be at least 80m expandable to 100m (some are a bit closer to 90m by looking from the drawings), except Lougheed Station, which will be 120m.

Lincoln station, which is an elevated, single-entrance, side platform station with 80m platform built on top of a mall parking lot, cost 28M to construct.

Hmm, interesting. Is that station an anomaly though? Or are most of the Evergreen Line stations a similar cost? If Vancouver can consistently be in the ~$30 million range for stations, it only brings the total cost of doing elevated along Eglinton East down.

 

[snowystar]

Hmm, interesting. Is that station an anomaly though? Or are most of the Evergreen Line stations a similar cost? If Vancouver can consistently be in the ~$30 million range for stations, it only brings the total cost of doing elevated along Eglinton East down.

That's the only station with known cost because its a late addition to the project (ie. not included within the original $1403M budget). I don't know, but from the rendering, it just look pretty much like rest of the elevated stations.

 

[junctionist]

Even if the difference between subway and LRT is $500 million, that would still be a waste. The RT doesn't need subway capacity. A simplified transfer by locating the subway and LRT platforms in a single, grand hall at Kennedy Station for easy transfers is all that's needed. $500 million can buy a lot of LRT or kickstart the construction of the U2 line (DRL).

Also, Kennedy, as one of the most heavily used stations in the system, ought to have unique and exceptional architecture and finishes. I would say that it should be on par with the new Spadina line stations, though world-famous architects aren't needed for great results. Metrolinx should understand that.

 

[sixrings]

Even if the difference between subway and LRT is $500 million, that would still be a waste. The RT doesn't need subway capacity. A simplified transfer by locating the subway and LRT platforms in a single, grand hall at Kennedy Station for easy transfers is all that's needed. $500 million can buy a lot of LRT or kickstart the construction of the U2 line (DRL).

Also, Kennedy, as one of the most heavily used stations in the system, ought to have unique and exceptional architecture and finishes. I would say that it should be on par with the new Spadina line stations, though world-famous architects aren't needed for great results. Metrolinx should understand that.

Agreed. ID much rather have the 500 Million go towards extending Eglinton to the Airport or Finch LRT to Yonge.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I just hope they come out of the meeting with an elevated Eglinton LRT funded on debt financing by the city. Scarborough gets its single transfer to downtown on a 100% grade separated line, and Metrolinx gets to keep its sunk costs.

 

[rbt]

Even if the difference between subway and LRT is $500 million, that would still be a waste. The RT doesn't need subway capacity. A simplified transfer by locating the subway and LRT platforms in a single, grand hall at Kennedy Station for easy transfers is all that's needed. $500 million can buy a lot of LRT or kickstart the construction of the U2 line (DRL).

Even if we had to spend that money in northern Scarborough, I'm not sure subway to Sheppard would be my first choice.

$500M should be enough to extend the LRT to Steeles (via McCowan) and Sheppard LRT east to Medowvale Road.

$950M+ would be enough to run multiple branches (say McCowan, Markham Road, and Neilson) to Steeles (York Region may extend further) which would greatly simplify a large number of circuitous, infrequent, and unreliable bus routes.

My guess is that replacing the 129, 102, and a chunk of the 133 with LRT to Kennedy (via SCC) would increase ridership more than having them terminate at a subway station at Sheppard Ave.

 

[kEiThZ]

As predicted. Political realities are smacking the proponents of LRT in the face.

It's not that LRT is bad. It's just that it is pointless for Scarborough where buses are entirely sufficient for most corridors.

If the subway is extended up to Sheppard/McCowan, IMHO that could largely kill the case for the SELRT too. Reserved bus lanes would be good enough.

 

[kEiThZ]

@rbt

Huh? If you are riding the 133 or 129, why would you favour LRT with an extra transfer at Kennedy (after one at Malvern or McCowan) over delivery from your bus ride directly to a subway terminus? Time saved by LRT is marginal at best, in that it is not sufficient to dissuade most from preferring a BD extension. Transit geeks agonize over a few minutes saved without understanding that 5 minutes or even 10 minutes saved isn't motivation for many average riders to take on an extra transfer unless forced by the network. And if the extension gets up to Sheppard, the value of LRT will be diminished to nearly zero.

You might have a case for the 102. But I suspect that if a BD extension happened, we would see the route split or branched with a new Markham North service running from either STC or McCowan/Sheppard (whatever the terminus is).

The only riders who would object are Centennial students and staff. And none of them vote in enough numbers or concentration to scare any politician.

 

[rbt]

@rbt

Huh? If you are riding the 133 or 129, why would you favour LRT with an extra transfer at Kennedy (after one at Malvern or McCowan) over delivery from your bus ride directly to a subway terminus?

With the $500M to $1B in additional funds being talked about, the LRT to Steeles along the 3 major north/south streets would be built in a more reliable configuration than the current bus routes and both methods involve a transfer (LRT to Subway at Kennedy, or Bus to Subway at Sheppard).

Today if I'm waiting at Steeles and McCowan Road for a bus, I take Steeles East to Finch because catching the 129 didn't work very well the couple of times I've tried. I don't see how terminating at Sheppard instead of SCC fixes that.


To be honest, the first thing in Scarborough that I would buy is a sidewalk on Meadowvale Road north of Old Finch. Crossing that steel bridge on foot is hazardous in the best of weather. There are a ton of tiny things that make that area hostile to pedestrians and nearly all transit users are pedestrians at some point in their trip.

 

[Voltz]

@rbt

Huh? If you are riding the 133 or 129, why would you favour LRT with an extra transfer at Kennedy (after one at Malvern or McCowan) over delivery from your bus ride directly to a subway terminus? Time saved by LRT is marginal at best, in that it is not sufficient to dissuade most from preferring a BD extension. Transit geeks agonize over a few minutes saved without understanding that 5 minutes or even 10 minutes saved isn't motivation for many average riders to take on an extra transfer unless forced by the network. And if the extension gets up to Sheppard, the value of LRT will be diminished to nearly zero.

You might have a case for the 102. But I suspect that if a BD extension happened, we would see the route split or branched with a new Markham North service running from either STC or McCowan/Sheppard (whatever the terminus is).

The only riders who would object are Centennial students and staff. And none of them vote in enough numbers or concentration to scare any politician.

If extra money is going to be spent on the SRT corridor I'd rather it be on extending the SRT up to Finch or even Steeles than a subway to Sheppard, You are going to have a hard time convincing me that the time saved by eliminating that transfer at Kennedy outweighs the time saved by the SRT covering a larger area. Getting from Finch and Neilson to Sheppard and McCowan by bus would take a while and so does getting from Centennial College to STC by bus.