Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[coffey1]

Could they be any more blatantly disrespectful toward Scarborough? The Star Ladies & Gents.

After years of a weekly, at times daily assault using bias slanted "facts" to deter a subway line or any quality transit to the heart of Scarborough. Now the Star seems to be promoting the Richmond Hill subway & "will pay for itself". 1/4 the population of Scarborough, home to a much wealthier suburban crowd. The "Big boyz club" just cant help themselves. Beautiful choice of wording when compared to any article about the SSE

Unbelievably disheartening as always.

Again shouldn't give this sad media organization clicks but as always It needs to be called out.

https://beta.thestar.com/news/gta/2...ill-knows-the-better-way-to-get-a-subway.html

 

[Hopkins123]

Could they be any blatantly more disrespectful to Scarborough? The Star Ladies & Gents.

After years of a weekly & at times daily assault using bias slanted facts, to deter a subway line or any quality transit to the heart of Scarborough. Now the Star seems to be promoting the Richmond Hill subway & "will pay for itself". 1/4 the population of Scarborough, home to a much wealthier suburban crowd. Seems to be a match made in heaven. Read the chosen wording on this article & read any one about Scarborough.

Unbelievably disheartening

Again shouldn't give this sad media organization clicks but as always It needs to be called out.

https://beta.thestar.com/news/gta/2...ill-knows-the-better-way-to-get-a-subway.html

At least Scarborough Town Centre has some built up density surrounding it (and Mississauga Square One for that matter). These are destinations where the subway ought to be going, not Highway 7.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Highway 401 and McCowan Road...

...in 1961.

Now the cows want sidewalks, I mean rapid transit of some sort. What a difference 50 years make.

 

[Tuck]

Really, GO should be used for long distance commuting, and the subway/lrts for local commuting. Unfortunately, people aren't used to this way of thinking - the subway is a proven commodity. The GO trains are still developing into something truly useful. But they remain expensive and with low frequency. That needs to change. The Go Train should not be seen as a premium service, because basic transit is not a premium service. I believe Metrolinx just learned that with the UPX train.

I believe I will reiterate what someone else said in this thread: So long as the GO train is treated as a premium, the subway system will keep being extended to the fringes. Thats a waste. Not just for taxpayers, but its a waste of time for the people riding the subway. More stops, longer trips.

Toronto needs a mindset change. The subway is not the only train thats useful for getting around anymore. But to cement that, the Go system must be expanded greatly. Lower fares, more service. Until then, I agree that it isn't fair to say "People in scarborough can just take a go train," because right now they aren't on the same level.

One day, maybe.

Could they be any more blatantly disrespectful toward Scarborough? The Star Ladies & Gents.

After years of a weekly, at times daily assault using bias slanted "facts" to deter a subway line or any quality transit to the heart of Scarborough. Now the Star seems to be promoting the Richmond Hill subway & "will pay for itself". 1/4 the population of Scarborough, home to a much wealthier suburban crowd. The "Big boyz club" just cant help themselves. Beautiful choice of wording when compared to any article about the SSE

Unbelievably disheartening as always.

Again shouldn't give this sad media organization clicks but as always It needs to be called out.

https://beta.thestar.com/news/gta/2...ill-knows-the-better-way-to-get-a-subway.html

Having an opinion is not the same as bias. Its an opinion piece.

Also, I find that accusing someone of bias is a lazy and fairly poor way of countering an argument.

 

[Rainforest]

Really, GO should be used for long distance commuting, and the subway/lrts for local commuting. Unfortunately, people aren't used to this way of thinking - the subway is a proven commodity. The GO trains are still developing into something truly useful. But they remain expensive and with low frequency. That needs to change. The Go Train should not be seen as a premium service, because basic transit is not a premium service. I believe Metrolinx just learned that with the UPX train.

I believe I will reiterate what someone else said in this thread: So long as the GO train is treated as a premium, the subway system will keep being extended to the fringes. Thats a waste. Not just for taxpayers, but its a waste of time for the people riding the subway. More stops, longer trips.

Toronto needs a mindset change. The subway is not the only train thats useful for getting around anymore. But to cement that, the Go system must be expanded greatly. Lower fares, more service. Until then, I agree that it isn't fair to say "People in scarborough can just take a go train," because right now they aren't on the same level.

The scale of investment needed to expand the GO train system capacity to the level of being able to handle intra-416 demand in lieu of subways, is comparable to the cost of a few new subway lines.

Tory tried his best with SmartTrack; and the outcome? mere 7 trains per hour. We do not know the capacity of trains yet, but it is not likely to be more than 2,000 passengers per train. That means, at most 14,000 pphpd, versus 30,000 - 40,000 for a subway line.

In order to do better than that, costly widening of the rail corridors is needed, and likely an underground central rail tunnel as well.

 

[Tuck]

The scale of investment needed to expand the GO train system capacity to the level of being able to handle intra-416 demand in lieu of subways, is comparable to the cost of a few new subway lines.

Tory tried his best with SmartTrack; and the outcome? mere 7 trains an hour. We do not know the capacity of trains yet, but it is not likely to be more than 2,000 passengers per train. That means, at most 14,000 pphpd, versus 30,000 - 40,000 for a subway line.

In order to do better than that, costly widening of the rail corridors is needed, and likely an underground central rail tunnel as well.

Didn't Wynne devote 16 billion to expand the GO Train system?

(I'm not being snarky, its an honest question).

You're right, it would be expensive. I'd love to see a cost benefit analysis/comparison be done on that though. I'd have to imagine a mostly at grade (With some elevated) railway is far less expensive than tunnels throughout the city. Granted, I suppose I'm ignoring the cost of electrification (Along a much longer distance than the subway system reaches).

 

[rbt]

The scale of investment needed to expand the GO train system capacity to the level of being able to handle intra-416 demand in lieu of subways, is comparable to the cost of a few new subway lines.

Upfront, probably close. Far lower ongoing maintenance costs though; closer to 1/50th the price to maintain current GO corridor per km versus TTC subway. Even with similar traffic levels and station density it would be under 1/10th the maintenance burden of a bored/deep-station configuration.

 

[coffey1]

Having an opinion is not the same as bias. Its an opinion piece.

Also, I find that accusing someone of bias is a lazy and fairly poor way of countering an argument.

And you assume I'm basing this observation off one opinion piece. The real issue is the ongoing attack on Scarborough & the ongoing awkwardness/negativity toward suburban Toronto in general. But since this topic is just about the SSE ill just say Scarborough center has a very reasonable case to receive a subway extension & is more justifiable than 1/2 of the stops that exist in the current system & more justifiable than anywhere in York Region. The boosting of the Richmond Hill subway from the regular opinion columnist of the Star is just disturbing.

I'm not even sure what a fair way to counter a Political media giant which controls such a negative narrative of Toronto's suburbs. So all I can do is call it out & explain to those that pay little attention of the extent and the frustration of residents that have put up with this garbage.

Don't get me wrong it's not the only issue & im not putting the full blame on the media. But its certainly a major issue as people from the outside believe there message as genuine & there is no Political voice in the media for a counter argument. I can only say my piece & if you disagree that's understandable but hopefully some that don't look at the articles through a Scarborough residents point of view will see the Political nonsense for what it is & get a sense of where much of the frustration stems from.

Good point about GO transit being unaffordable & fare integration will hopefully come to fruition one day. But that's a bit different topic than linking Scarborough Center to Toronto's current main LOCAL backbone which is very important to the inclusiveness of the City as well as convenience, attractiveness and high level of future growth if implemented properly. The ridership growth & demand on the system will really be the only issue once its built.

 

[Palma]

The scale of investment needed to expand the GO train system capacity to the level of being able to handle intra-416 demand in lieu of subways, is comparable to the cost of a few new subway lines.

Tory tried his best with SmartTrack; and the outcome? mere 7 trains per hour. We do not know the capacity of trains yet, but it is not likely to be more than 2,000 passengers per train. That means, at most 14,000 pphpd, versus 30,000 - 40,000 for a subway line.

In order to do better than that, costly widening of the rail corridors is needed, and likely an underground central rail tunnel as well.

Even forgetting about intra 416, GO travel should be for long distance and that means outside Toronto. Toronto is getting Finch LRT, Crosstown and hopefully Crosstown West and East (although too bad Crosstown is not grade separated after Don Mills) , Sheppard LRT and Scarborough......, DRL, SmartTrack that serves 416, turning UPX into commuter line (SmartTrack?). Any other subway needs to serve Toronto. Once GO prices do come down and with increased frequencies the demand for "subways" from outside Toronto will decrease. Price and frequencies are the 2 reason why everyone wants subways and thats what the 905 looks at

 

[Rainforest]

Even forgetting about intra 416, GO travel should be for long distance and that means outside Toronto. Toronto is getting Finch LRT, Crosstown and hopefully Crosstown West and East (although too bad Crosstown is not grade separated after Don Mills) , Sheppard LRT and Scarborough......, DRL, SmartTrack that serves 416, turning UPX into commuter line (SmartTrack?). Any other subway needs to serve Toronto. Once GO prices do come down and with increased frequencies the demand for "subways" from outside Toronto will decrease. Price and frequencies are the 2 reason why everyone wants subways and thats what the 905 looks at

GO service outside Toronto is another kettle of fish. For those areas, what Metrolinx is doing in the last few years results in a huge improvement compared to the very limited service they had before. In many cases, just buying more trains and grade-separating major crossings resulted in 50% to 100% more capacity.

On the other hand, Toronto's inner suburbs have developed a much higher percentage of transit ridership than York Region or Durham or Brampton, and a higher percentage of riders want to travel to the downtown core or to other areas within Toronto. Today, they utilize the TTC's very frequent arterial bus routes, and many of them transfer from bus to the subway. That flow is much larger than what GO can handle with its current corridor width and the Union station design. In order to make a difference in this segment, massive investments will be needed.

 

[Rainforest]

Upfront, probably close. Far lower ongoing maintenance costs though; closer to 1/50th the price to maintain current GO corridor per km versus TTC subway. Even with similar traffic levels and station density it would be under 1/10th the maintenance burden of a bored/deep-station configuration.

Very interesting point. Although, then I am a little puzzled how the old Yonge and Bloor subways remain profitable for the TTC, despite having quite a few mid-block stations that are located underground and are lightly used.

Anyway, this makes me think that the "Glen Murray" route for Scarborough subway, mostly in the existing SRT corridor, should be put back on the table and evaluated again. Of course, it is not really a "Glen Murray" route, certainly it has been proposed multiple times before him.

This option will require a much shorter tunnel; I assume about 2.5 km, starting approx. 500 m south of Ellesmere and going underground all the way to STC. Plus, Lawrence East station can stay in its present location, and on surface. RER / SmartTrack will skip Lawrence East and stop at Ellesmere, while the subway will stop at Lawrence East and skip Ellesmere.

The disadvantages are the need to build a new Kennedy station, the competition between the subway and RER for the corridor space, and the need to shut SRT down before the subway construction begins. The latter issue can be mitigated if the "Crosstown East" LRT, on Eglinton / Kingston / Morningside, is built before the SRT shutdown starts. During the subway construcion, some of the buses will run to that LRT, some straight to Kennedy or Warden stations, and some to Don Mills station.

The original, 3-stop or 4-stop SSE route is certainly better than the "Glen Murray" option. But if it gets cut to just one station, then using the SRT corridor might be more cost-effective than a 6-km long tunnel with no intermediate stops.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Anything about a GO midtown line?

 

[robmausser]

The scale of investment needed to expand the GO train system capacity to the level of being able to handle intra-416 demand in lieu of subways, is comparable to the cost of a few new subway lines.

This is so unbelievably demonstrably false I am actually laughing.

The short section of the DRL, from Queen station on the Yonge line to Pape on the Bloor line, is pegged at $6 billion dollars.

Subway construction is exponentially more expensive per km than any other method, whether expanding existing rail corridors above ground or LRT.

 

[rbt]

Very interesting point. Although, then I am a little puzzled how the old Yonge and Bloor subways remain profitable for the TTC, despite having quite a few mid-block stations that are located underground and are lightly used.

Those lines are NOT profitable to TTC. TTC accounting staff has never actually said they are. You'll notice when TTC calculated cost per streetcar/bus route (both cap+op) the subway lines were always missing from those reports.

They do (probably) run an operational profit but only if you subsidize the feeder bus service; walkins don't do it. I wouldn't call a grocery store profitable if it required government subsidies from their upstream suppliers.

Also, a huge chunk of TTCs SOGR capital renewal program would, for most transit organizations, be considered operations; things like escalator and tunnel wall maintenance. Once you add capital into the mix, TTC subway lines almost certainly require an widely varying annual subsidy even with the feeder buses taking the brunt of the operations subsidy load.

Both Canada and Ontario run a profit from the TTC (indirect income via income-taxes, business taxes, etc.). I'm less certain that Toronto (municipality) runs an overall profit from TTC operations; but it's citizens probably do.

 

[BurlOak]

Maybe the Sheppard line is the most profitable line the TTC has?