Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[gweed123]

That was for the later extension project. The $190 million TTC plan in 2006 was only for the existing SRT from Kennedy to McCowan. This didn't require a new yard.

As the city planning department has concluded that extension part Scarborough Centre isn't necessary, we can go back to 2006 plan rather than spending $billions.

Agreed. Going back to the 2006 plan seems like the most prudent choice at this point. Bombardier is going to owe the TTC something for the late delivery of the streetcars, so maybe some custom modifications to some Mark II trains "on the house" would be in order?

 

[44 North]

Somehow I agree with you - I don't think the Mark II train dimensions are in Kessmaat's expertise - but I am also sure that it would not stop her from saying it as a fact.

True. Though I personally don't want to give her much flack on the transit front. IMO she's one of the best people we got, and seems willing to do her best to not toe the line. Even during the SSE debate when it was clear that all levels of gov't wanted a subway, and they wanted Planning to go along with them - she did stand her ground. I recall one direct and pointed Q she was asked, which was basically whether in her own unbiased expert opinion which was better: SSE or SLRT. She took awhile to answer, but then admitted SLRT was best. But no doubt she's being muzzled, which I get a sense with the DRL debate.

Though when it comes to City higher-ups on the transit file, I put her a distant second behind Byford. First day on the job he basically said straight up that a relief line is needed asap. And he's maintained that stance. But seldom do we hear him reference it anymore, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's been told to stay mum. I guess this might coincide with Tory's election, but whatever it is I think he's been muzzled and put on a short leash.

Maybe more surprising that after a number of years of construction, it would still be the most cost effective solution.

• Tear up maybe 500m of tunnel west of the portal (when the TBM's are done) and relocate the track to the south side of Eglinton.
  
• Grade-separate Laird to Kennedy.
• Connect SRT to Eglinton line.
• Cost is still cheaper than Scarborough subway.
• Proper interchange station with DRL could be built.
• It could be done faster than Scarborough subway.
• Yonge-Eglinton Station would still be on the critical path for completion of the Eglinton line.

Exactly. Rough estimates of cost-savings (while maintaining grade-separation) isn't rocket science. The opportunities for affordable techniques are readily apparent, and we're clearly seeing that with the changes to the Eglinton West section. The surprising thing is that many seem very supportive of grade-separating Eglinton West using methods like elevation or trenched (even with its lower ridership vs Eg East). But we never got that support or analysis with Eglinton East. Right off the bat the per km costing between Laird-Kennedy was on par with the tunneled Mt Dennis-Laird section. It was polarized, with only the two extremes presented: per km costing for tram-style in-median (least costly) vs per km costing for deep bore (costliest). No in between.

Had the public been shown the spectrum and ranges available for grade-separation, we could've provided a seamless subway-like Mt Dennis-Malvern line, and freed-up ~$2bn in the process. Not to mention avoided the whole SSE debate altogether.

This is one thing I find somewhat annoying when it comes to the last couple decades of transit planning in TO. With the exception of Scarboro, few want to talk about affordable grade-separation techniques like trenched or elevated. We're usually presented with either all deep bore tunnel options, or (non-grade-separated) in-median. And this is also why I like Vancouver's approach, and what @officedweller posted above. It shows just how flexible and dynamic transit planning can/should be when intermediary options are presented. With the completion of Evergreen, Vancouver will have beaten TO in having the largest grade-separated subway/metro system in the country. No small feat when considering its size compared with TO or Montreal

Agreed. Going back to the 2006 plan seems like the most prudent choice at this point. Bombardier is going to owe the TTC something for the late delivery of the streetcars, so maybe some custom modifications to some Mark II trains "on the house" would be in order?

I like the idea of this "on the house" option in relation to the late LFLRV delivery. I've had a similar idea about a future order of streetcars, but what could be 'on the house' in this scenario would be for Bombardier to modify the ~60 Outlook order for bi-directional operation. I think with regards to waterfront transit, bi-directional vehicles could be very beneficial.

 

[dowlingm]

Bombardier is going to owe the TTC something for the late delivery of the streetcars, so maybe some custom modifications to some Mark II trains "on the house" would be in order?

On the house ha ha ha... from a company which needs billions from the feds and QC to stay alive? And how many times are we going to spend the blood we're going to squeeze from the stone? 60 streetcars, now Mark IIa special order ICTS, anything else? Maybe 10 C-Series for a YYZ-YTZ TTC route?

 

[gweed123]

On the house ha ha ha... from a company which needs billions from the feds and QC to stay alive? And how many times are we going to spend the blood we're going to squeeze from the stone? 60 streetcars, now Mark IIa special order ICTS, anything else? Maybe 10 C-Series for a YYZ-YTZ TTC route?

The TTC is going to end up suing Bombardier for something at the end of this. Rather than financial compensation, I'm just saying that maybe something else can be worked out. This is of course assuming the TTC/Bombardier contract is worded properly and that they're entitled to compensation for delays.

 

[44 North]

On the house ha ha ha... from a company which needs billions from the feds and QC to stay alive? And how many times are we going to spend the blood we're going to squeeze from the stone? 60 streetcars, now Mark IIa special order ICTS, anything else? Maybe 10 C-Series for a YYZ-YTZ TTC route?

no, I didn't mean the order for 60 streetcars would be free. Rather that BBD would be willing to do the engineering / designs / modifications for LFLRV Outlook bidirectional capability pro bono. We'd still pay for the 60 streetcars though (and that's if the TTC were to pursue bidirectional Outlooks in any future order...which is purely my speculation).

I'm not sure how much this modification would cost. But I'm assuming it wouldn't amount to much for BBD - since the work would be mostly done in-house, and could be considered a write-off. Particularly if it's contingent on them not getting sued for their belated deliveries of the current order.

 

[coffey1]

I can read between the lines from many posts here & Metroland/Star articles a major reason for attacking Scarborough center's integration into Toronto main transit artery seems to be due to the DRL having not yet received funding.

We really need to fund the DRL ASAP so these outsider Politicians, heavily politicized media with their politicized "experts" & devout followers can quit grasping at straws to find ways to take Scarborough's subway funding and chop down it's design to something which will wear the scars of Political warfare. This "priority" nonsense has to stop, along with the constant plans to find a technology that will continue on the current inefficient RT route, with the segregated inconvenient transfer.

Both lines should be moving forward together. But building something to Scarborough Center other than a line that is fairly integrated to the current infrastructure, on a route that is well thought out & attractive for business & commuters alike is completely ridiculous. Unfortunately we're now down to 1 stop for the time being because of this exclusive opposition.

We get it. You need to fund the DRL. Maybe you need a Mayor like Rob Ford to raise our taxes & lobby the Fed's. Just saying as much as we all like to bag on the guy & for good reason most times. And yes luckily he aligned with the Federal Politico's at that time which made it easier. But the guy really did something good by solidifying money for a Scarborough subway. Scarborough certainly needs a complete local network of LRT or BRT, but it isn't an either or. It's two separate issues.

And the DRL & SSE are two separate issues. Both very important to the future of building a fair & inclusive transit system in this growing City. The DRL needs a "Champion" to solidify the funds but not by taking or chopping away at the design and at expense of quality growth in other areas of the City. That is not a "Champion". That type of Politics is what continues to fuel this level of angst, divide and chaos in this City.

Hard to say for sure were we are headed in this transit planning chaos. But continuing to fight over who is the "priority" instead of working together is only going to create further chaos. And certainly wont result in an efficient outcome for anyone.

 

[Tuck]

No.

The DRL has top priority. Approving any other transit project before that is flat out irresponsible. That includes the YSSE and the YNSE. The Yonge line is congested as hell and is desperate need to relief. I get that Scarborough needs relief too, but the Yonge line affects many, many more people.

I'd still think the SSE was stupid if it came after, since it does very little to help transit trips within scarborough itself (Which IIRC is the majority of scarborough transit trips?) and is basically serving the role of a GO Train. But regardless, I could stomach the frivolities that politicians love so much if they had acted less selfishly.

The Yonge line is the spine of the city. The *entire* city. No, not just downtown. Providing relief to the Yonge line affects everyone, including people who live in Scarborough. And as it so happens, the DRL is a benefit to people mainly living in the suburbs too, again including Scarborough.

This city wants to build subways to the suburbs? SSE, YSSE, YNSE? Sure. Fine. Do all of them for all I care. You don't even need to wait till the DRL is built - just approved. But do the one that is desperately needed, is going to take the longest, and impacts the most amount of people first.

Anything less than that is irresponsible.

 

[coffey1]

No.

The DRL has top priority. Approving any other transit project before that is flat out irresponsible. That includes the YSSE and the YNSE. The Yonge line is congested as hell and is desperate need to relief. I get that Scarborough needs relief too, but the Yonge line affects many, many more people.

I'd still think the SSE was stupid if it came after, since it does very little to help transit trips within scarborough itself (Which IIRC is the majority of scarborough transit trips?) and is basically serving the role of a GO Train. But regardless, I could stomach the frivolities that politicians love so much if they had acted less selfishly.

The Yonge line is the spine of the city. The *entire* city. No, not just downtown. Providing relief to the Yonge line affects everyone, including people who live in Scarborough. And as it so happens, the DRL is a benefit to people mainly living in the suburbs too, again including Scarborough.

This city wants to build subways to the suburbs? SSE, YSSE, YNSE? Sure. Fine. Do all of them for all I care. You don't even need to wait till the DRL is built - just approved. But do the one that is desperately needed, is going to take the longest, and impacts the most amount of people first.

Anything less than that is irresponsible.

Actually my post said we need to fund the DRL and start building ASAP. But attempting to stop one project in another area of the City to fund another will continue to get us nowhere.

The point was that transit starvation is not isolated to one area of the City & this "Im a higher priority" is nonsense. Why is the core a priority? Because it was already blessed with quality transit and now the beast is growing. That doesn't mean we stop building an inclusive City elsewhere.

Why should Scarborough residents be forced to take GO and TTC? ($20'day to get to good paying jobs) Maybe there is a reason the majority of Scarborough trips don't go downtown. 1. Because there isn't an efficient City wide TTC transit system & 2. Traffic is miserable. That stat is horribly misused to fit the agenda.

Like I said the DRL needs a "Rob Ford" type to gather funding and not at the expense of other projects in any other areas of the City.

 

[44 North]

I can read between the lines from many posts here & Metroland/Star articles a major reason for attacking Scarborough center's integration into Toronto main transit artery seems to be due to the DRL having not yet received funding.

We really need to fund the DRL ASAP so these outsider Politicians, heavily politicized media with their politicized "experts" & devout followers can quit grasping at straws to find ways to take Scarborough's subway funding and chop down it's design to something which will wear the scars of Political warfare. This "priority" nonsense has to stop, along with the constant plans to find a technology that will continue on the current inefficient RT route, with the segregated inconvenient transfer.

Both lines should be moving forward together. But building something to Scarborough Center other than a line that is fairly integrated to the current infrastructure, on a route that is well thought out & attractive for business & commuters alike is completely ridiculous. Unfortunately we're now down to 1 stop for the time being because of this exclusive opposition.

We get it. You need to fund the DRL. Maybe you need a Mayor like Rob Ford to raise our taxes & lobby the Fed's. Just saying as much as we all like to bag on the guy & for good reason most times. And yes luckily he aligned with the Federal Politico's at that time which made it easier. But the guy really did something good by solidifying money for a Scarborough subway. Scarborough certainly needs a complete local network of LRT or BRT, but it isn't an either or. It's two separate issues.

And the DRL & SSE are two separate issues. Both very important to the future of building a fair & inclusive transit system in this growing City. The DRL needs a "Champion" to solidify the funds but not by taking or chopping away at the design and at expense of quality growth in other areas of the City. That is not a "Champion". That type of Politics is what continues to fuel this level of angst, divide and chaos in this City.

Hard to say for sure were we are headed in this transit planning chaos. But continuing to fight over who is the "priority" instead of working together is only going to create further chaos. And certainly wont result in an efficient outcome for anyone.

For the most part I agree with aspects of your posts. There's obviously problems in past and present planning - which is compounded+perpetuated by the media, and inherent biases of the public towards certain projects (and political leaning of the pols that presented them). Naturally the route of the current SRT / S(L)RT is disjointed and fairly poor; no question there. But I'm curious if in spite of its current route you supported the idea that Ford/McGuinty proposed for Eglinton back in 2010, and what @BurlOak and I were talking on the previous page (i.e interlined Crosstown and SLRT - with complete grade-separation from Mt Dennis to Malvern)? Was that an okay compromise?

Personally I thought there was a lot of merit in the idea, just so long as it wasn't tunneled for the entire length between Don Mills and Kennedy (which is something the public was never presented with).

 

[coffey1]

For the most part I agree with aspects of your posts. There's obviously problems in past and present planning - which is compounded+perpetuated by the media, and inherent biases of the public towards certain projects (and political leaning of the pols that presented them). Naturally the route of the current SRT / S(L)RT is disjointed and fairly poor; no question there. But I'm curious if in spite of its current route you supported the idea that Ford/McGuinty proposed for Eglinton back in 2010, and what @BurlOak and I were talking on the previous page (i.e interlined Crosstown and SLRT - with complete grade-separation from Mt Dennis to Malvern)? Was that an okay compromise?

Personally I thought there was a lot of merit in the idea, just so long as it wasn't tunneled for the entire length between Don Mills and Kennedy (which is something the public was never presented with).

When compared to the current RT the compromise was much better but certainly not the right decision & you dont get a compromise without other improvements in the plan. At that time of compromise there was also the Sheppard LRT hack boondoggle that needed to be addressed. The compromise came with a catch that the Sheppard subway would gain steam. My preference for Sheppard had always been either a stubway LRT conversion or a Subway(Stubway thru Kennedy to STC)-LRT hybrid. But under this current plan I could certainly see the benefit for a LRT built as a full local loop from Sheppard around to Eglinton now that the full Crosstown is being tabled again. As well the SSE connecting direct to Scarborough center solves the other issues of connecting to Toronto's main backbone. And as ridiculous as the Sheppard stub would remain, at least there would be solid network for Scarborough.

Connecting Downtown to Scarborough Center & pushing access further East seamlessly on the TTC will be of much greater benefit than Mt.Dennis to STC. Yonge&Eglinton is not the main job/entertainment hub & that is what should be connected directly to Scarborough's core. No matter how much money you can save, every other option is not going to be most effective solution for Scarborough.

Aside from the lack of subway stop on Lawrence & an extra stop around STC at the moment this current plan make far more sense to build around than any other as a starting point of quality public transit in Scarborough. Every other plan at this point is just an outside view looking for a cheaper, less efficient way which would only better serve interests outside of Scarborough's future growth. Unlike the core the majority of people in Scarborough dont have a strong Political voice and had to talk through a crazy Mayor who acknowledged the high level of frustration from residents. I still think people have a hard time believing that there's a strong false & unsupportive narrative shelled thru the media toward growth in Toronto's suburbs which isn't help matters whatsoever. We're now finally seeing this frustration coming to light and entering the City's political realm.

It's time for all residents to pay up to keep up with the needs of a growing City Core which which has seen residual growth that came along with quality transit many years later & it's also time to pay up to connect the neglected suburbs into this system in a seamlessly, fairly integrated manner to the current main infrastructure. There should be no half baked plans allowed. Build it once and build it right or don't bother. We're either growing an inclusive World class City or were not.

Tory seems to be attempting to play both side of the fence. But with Tory its hard to know if he's being a snakeskin Politician or it's genuine. So it's hard to tell if were in another classic game of the Political "kick ball" or if he's truly looking to get shovels in the ground . If he fails to keep the subway on track, get your popcorn ready as this mess will go to another level & likely wont end well on either side of the debate. It's time to move forward and support the projects required in all areas of the City.

 

[44 North]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And for the most I'd say it's not just Scarboro where poor attempts at planning have been made. This is city-wide, and now region-wide. Seems we either do things ad hoc in piecemeal, or hastily throw together an across-the-board 'grand plan'. And these grand plans seem to always have glaring flaws with certain projects/aspects (which inadvertently affect other projects). Then under its own volition, meddling, or lack of funding - the whole thing falls apart anyway. Some might argue Metrolinx are here to see past the bs and get things done right. But I also think we're now expanding and adding layers to the convoluted planning and politicizing of decades past, just on a larger scale.

But there definitely has to be a Lawrence station if we follow through with SSE. A 6km stationless subway extension is ridiculous. This isn't exactly an unpopulated chasm it's passing through. Lawrence East is like our 10th busiest surface route. And I agree with conversion of Sheppard to LRT. Maybe not now. But it'd make sense, and should've been studied further IMO.

And as for Tory, SmartTrack, and WynneLinx's deus ex machina of electrified Stouffville RER (a new unstudied plan never included in the Big Move/RTP)... there's definitely something fishy going on. All seemed to coincide around the same time, after the SSE had been prioritized, and while the Relief Line and YRNS are being finalized. Whether there's a coordinated effort to delay SSE and the RL, reduce their costs, or kill them outright...it's hard to say. I still like Tory, and listened to his shows long before he became mayor. But ultimately he's still a politician, and by nature will have to be at least part snake oil salesman. And whether he's purposefully or inadvertently working alongside the Prov Libs is hard to say. But I envision SSE and the RL are not close to being finalized, and will become hot topics and debated over for many years.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Maybe more surprising that after a number of years of construction, it would still be the most cost effective solution.

• Tear up maybe 500m of tunnel west of the portal (when the TBM's are done) and relocate the track to the south side of Eglinton.
  
• Grade-separate Laird to Kennedy.
• Connect SRT to Eglinton line.
• Cost is still cheaper than Scarborough subway.
• Proper interchange station with DRL could be built.
• It could be done faster than Scarborough subway.
• Yonge-Eglinton Station would still be on the critical path for completion of the Eglinton line.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And for the most I'd say it's not just Scarboro where poor attempts at planning have been made. This is city-wide, and now region-wide. Seems we either do things ad hoc in piecemeal, or hastily throw together an across-the-board 'grand plan'. And these grand plans seem to always have glaring flaws with certain projects/aspects (which inadvertently affect other projects). Then under its own volition, meddling, or lack of funding - the whole thing falls apart anyway. Some might argue Metrolinx are here to see past the bs and get things done right. But I also think we're now expanding and adding layers to the convoluted planning and politicizing of decades past, just on a larger scale.

But there definitely has to be a Lawrence station if we follow through with SSE. A 6km stationless subway extension is ridiculous. This isn't exactly an unpopulated chasm it's passing through. Lawrence East is like our 10th busiest surface route. And I agree with conversion of Sheppard to LRT. Maybe not now. But it'd make sense, and should've been studied further IMO.

And as for Tory, SmartTrack, and WynneLinx's deus ex machina of electrified Stouffville RER (a new unstudied plan never included in the Big Move/RTP)... there's definitely something fishy going on. All seemed to coincide around the same time, after the SSE had been prioritized, and while the Relief Line and YRNS are being finalized. Whether there's a coordinated effort to delay SSE and the RL, reduce their costs, or kill them outright...it's hard to say. I still like Tory, and listened to his shows long before he became mayor. But ultimately he's still a politician, and by nature will have to be at least part snake oil salesman. And whether he's purposefully or inadvertently working alongside the Prov Libs is hard to say. But I envision SSE and the RL are not close to being finalized, and will become hot topics and debated over for many years.

Any theoried efforts should have been killed by city planning's latest report

 

[44 North]

Any theoried efforts should have been killed by city planning's latest report

Hope so. But I'm still a bit hesitant about what the Prov may be concocting behind closed doors, or what surprises Metrolinx has up their sleeves for when their next phase of YRNS drops. The last report in June had some real doozies that they carried forward for further study. And the Technical report was basically hidden from public eyes for months. I think Steve Munro had to file an FOI request for them to reveal it.

 

[Palma]

Hope so. But I'm still a bit hesitant about what the Prov may be concocting behind closed doors, or what surprises Metrolinx has up their sleeves for when their next phase of YRNS drops. The last report in June had some real doozies that they carried forward for further study. And the Technical report was basically hidden from public eyes for months. I think Steve Munro had to file an FOI request for them to reveal it.

thats the problem with metrolinx - very secretive.

 

[Johnny Au]

thats the problem with metrolinx - very secretive.

Metrolinx is as transparent as a block of lead at least one metre thick.