Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[darth_freeman]

I believe my point was quite clear. An area does not need a subway to intensify. On this, I am objectively correct. My evidence: the countless US cities without a subway who have developed just fine, or used light rail. Or better yet (And closer to home), downtown Hamilton or the new downtown Mississauga. That last one is especially appropriate since the entire area is based around a suburban mall. Sound familiar?

I'm sure people in Scarborough will be inspired to hear that they'll be allowed to develop as urban paradises such as downtown Mississauga and Hamilton.

 

[Forgotten]

But it will significantly help the existing transit riders. Scarborough has a high level of existing transit ridership; a lot more than Markham or Vaughan. The subway extension will cut the commute times for many of the existing riders.

Not if it doesn't go north of the 401 which it won't now. Thanks Tory.

Transit expansion must take into account the interests of existing riders; not just of people who will move into the neighborhood in future when and if that neighborhood intensifies and becomes more pedestrian-friendly.

Pass that memo to the department of planning. Thanks Kesmat.

 

[Rainforest]

Not if it doesn't go north of the 401 which it won't now. Thanks Tory.

The subway would certainly help more riders if it reached Sheppard. But even stopping at Scarborough Centre, it will directly connect to quite a few bus routes that currently feed into SRT.

Pass that memo to the department of planning. Thanks Kesmat.

That's not only Keesmaat; the modern school of urban planning is, for some reason, strongly biased towards building transit for future residents, and not so much improving transit for the existing riders.

 

[coffey1]

I believe my point was quite clear. An area does not need a subway to intensify. On this, I am objectively correct. My evidence: the countless US cities without a subway who have developed just fine, or used light rail. Or better yet (And closer to home), downtown Hamilton or the new downtown Mississauga. That last one is especially appropriate since the entire area is based around a suburban mall. Sound familiar?
QUOTE]

Mississauga's North-South LRT is planned to fit into the overall Masterplan they've been working on for years as they have made it a PRIORITY to attract high quality business.

Scarborough unfortunately is stuck in Toronto's political mud. And that poorly funded LRT hack job that was proposed on Sheppard and a replacement to the already questionable SLRT cant be compared to an effectively designed LRT line . The Eglinton Crosstown LRT extension make a lot of sense for Scarborough. The Subway as well considering the existing transit backbone in TORONTO. And Scarborough Center should be on it & it shouldn't be made more inconvenient to others by forcing a transfer. Just because a mistake was made in the past doesn't mean we should keep it or that the majority like it.

Sure people can put the full blame on Scarborough Politicians if they want... They are partially to blame but there are much greater Political challenges & obstacles that the 905 don't have to deal with that have hindered Scarborough's growth

 

[salsa]

Indeed, it is doubtful that extending the subway to STC will trigger a lot of new development; and it certainly will not change the urban form.

But it will significantly help the existing transit riders. Scarborough has a high level of existing transit ridership; a lot more than Markham or Vaughan. The subway extension will cut the commute times for many of the existing riders.

Transit expansion must take into account the interests of existing riders; not just of people who will move into the neighborhood in future when and if that neighborhood intensifies and becomes more pedestrian-friendly.

Existing riders matter, but evidence based planning said that the original LRT plan was the appropriate solution. The subway may be a few minutes faster, but at the same time it leaves northeast Scarborough with no rapid transit and removes every stop in central Scarborough between Kennedy and STC. At Scarborough Centre, the station will be relocated to McCowan Rd which will destroy the elegant pedestrian connections that have existed for 30 years between the SRT, shopping mall, Civic Centre and Albert Campbell Square.

So while the LRT would have had two stations within STC plus a third one at Brimley in the future when the area develops, the new subway station will be well removed from the centre of STC and further away from all the condos that have developed there and to the west at Brimley. This whole subway fiasco was never about building a transit system that works for Scarborough, it was all just for politics.

 

[Steve X]

Plus the LRT would be probably need construction phase now but instead we want till they finish the EA for the subway with one station. Malvern would be forever doom without any form of RT with this extension.

With one station through, the subway can actually curve into STC. Getting to Sheppard is an issue for another time. The goods of the extension of actually having a subway extended to Sheppard is dead making the subway a waste.

 

[Palma]

If you hadn't noticed, North York and Etobicoke already have subways into their "core", so I don't really see your point.

If anything it shows Scarborough is missing a subway that North York/Etobicoke already have (and have had for 30+ years!).

not etobicoke north. The same could be said of Scarborough, afterall is the Kennedy stop on Bloor not considered Scarborough? You are talking of Scarborough north just like Etobicoke North has no subway. So Scarborough is not alone in that

 

[Edward Skira]

The same could be said of Scarborough, afterall is the Kennedy stop on Bloor not considered Scarborough?

As are Victoria Park and Warden. Etobicoke has 4 subway stops and Scarborough has 3. Basically the same. But at least Etobicoke tried to put their downtown at the subway rather than at a mall far from mass transit.

 

[Palma]

well council should do a better communication job that Scarborugh has 3 subway stops and forget this scarborough ahs been left out business

 

[crs1026]

As are Victoria Park and Warden. Etobicoke has 4 subway stops and Scarborough has 3. Basically the same. But at least Etobicoke tried to put their downtown at the subway rather than at a mall far from mass transit.

I'm not sure why people point to Etobicoke as having a better deal. Subway or not, our City Center has been stalled for at least as long as Scarboro has had an RT line.

Pre-amalgamation, from the 1950's to the 1980's, Etobicoke did have a very strategic approach to development that ensured that infrastructure spending and growth in tax revenue went hand in hand. I can't comment on Scarboro as I never lived there, but Etobicoke's politicians did have their act together in a lot of ways. Not everything was perfect, but it led to some very nice suburbs and good civic services. On the other hand, our north end has been just as neglected as parts of Scarboro, and the Lakeshore is pretty gritty - more like Hamilton than to the Beaches.

The only thing that got wasted when the STC got built was some cheap farmland. Etobicoke has wasted a potential waterfront jewel with its Humber Bay condo jungle. Scarboro was apparently too smart to let developers destroy its shoreline.

- Paul

 

[CodeMonkey]

Existing riders matter, but evidence based planning said that the original LRT plan was the appropriate solution. The subway may be a few minutes faster, but at the same time it leaves northeast Scarborough with no rapid transit and removes every stop in central Scarborough between Kennedy and STC. At Scarborough Centre, the station will be relocated to McCowan Rd which will destroy the elegant pedestrian connections that have existed for 30 years between the SRT, shopping mall, Civic Centre and Albert Campbell Square.

So while the LRT would have had two stations within STC plus a third one at Brimley in the future when the area develops, the new subway station will be well removed from the centre of STC and further away from all the condos that have developed there and to the west at Brimley. This whole subway fiasco was never about building a transit system that works for Scarborough, it was all just for politics.

One of the possible routes awhile back did have a possible stop at STC. But I think the hard turn at Kennedy and something underground at the existing STC station where what killed that idea.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Anyway...time to build

 

[Rainforest]

Existing riders matter, but evidence based planning said that the original LRT plan was the appropriate solution.

Unfortunately, "evidence based" has become a code term for "tailored to the future density and not focused on helping the existing riders".

The subway may be a few minutes faster, but at the same time it leaves northeast Scarborough with no rapid transit and removes every stop in central Scarborough between Kennedy and STC. At Scarborough Centre, the station will be relocated to McCowan Rd which will destroy the elegant pedestrian connections that have existed for 30 years between the SRT, shopping mall, Civic Centre and Albert Campbell Square.

The location of STC subway station is not known at this point. If they are not going to build a station at McCowan and Lawrence, and not even going to rough it in, then there is no logical reason to run the subway under McCowan. They can select a shorter and cheaper route, running mostly under Brimley Rd.

In that case, the subway station can be placed very close to the Civic Centre, current bus terminal, and all other points of interest.

So while the LRT would have had two stations within STC plus a third one at Brimley in the future when the area develops, the new subway station will be well removed from the centre of STC and further away from all the condos that have developed there and to the west at Brimley.

The Brimley station is not included or funded as a part of the existing LRT plan, either.

If we are taking about a potential future station, we can as well consider a new LRT line in the E-W section of the former SRT corridor. That line can have a station at Brimley, as well as at Bellamy east of McCowan (another omission of the existing SLRT plan).

Such LRT line is not inconsistent with the subway extension. Of course, it will not run all the way to Kennedy and duplicate the subway; it will connect to SmartTrack's Agincourt or Ellesmere station in the west. In the east, it can run to Centennial Progress campus, and then have two branches, one to Malvern Centre and the other to UofT Scarborough.

This whole subway fiasco was never about building a transit system that works for Scarborough, it was all just for politics.

You can call it "fiasco" if it makes you feel better. You probably do not travel to Scarborough very often, and would not be a regular user of either SSE or SLRT.

But people who will ride the subway extension every day, are going to call it a major improvement.

 

[nfitz]

But people who will ride the subway extension every day, are going to call it a major improvement.

People who use the Sheppard subway every day probably called that a major improvement!

 

[Rainforest]

People who use the Sheppard subway every day probably called that a major improvement!

Undoubtfully, they do!

The concern is, of course, the opportunity cost. Something built instead of that subway for the same money, could have made even more riders happy.