Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

Most of Scarborough is also no where near the Scarborough Subway alignment, alas.

Where's that coming from? SC is decently central to most of northern Scarborough. Especially if you consider the population centre.

And this debate on ridership does actually bring up a good point. Nobody ever discusses closing down low ridership stations elsewhere in the city, because the need to maintain a whole network is obvious. Yet, people find it controversial to extend the subway 1-2 stops where the that rickety old SRT is generating ridership just below the subway threshold?

The LRT might have had better ridership. But in essence this debate is as much about quality over quantity. You know how somebody at Sheppard is sick of standing from Sheppard to Union during rush hour? You know how those North Yorkers hate the idea of extending the subway to RHC because it'll overcrowd the line? That's exactly how people in Scarborough view that transfer at Kennedy. And they hate it.

My wife, new to Scarborough, by virtue of marriage would rather ride the car till Downsview and grab the subway from there than get on McCowan and transfer at Kennedy. She's willing to put up with an extra 20 mins commute to avoid that transfer. And she's somebody who never lived in Scarborough before and had to put up with it daily.

All that said the LRT could have been sold. Had it come with something like GO RER or Smart Track earlier. Tell people that instead of transferring to Line 2, they'd be getting on GO at Kennedy for a faster commute. Make it a choice between comfort and speed. Instead the choice was between comfort and a marginal improvement in commute time.

 

[kEiThZ]

The lack of a Lawrence stop is a political sacrifice to Smart Track. I don't expect that will stand unless the engineering challenges of Lawrence East are severe.

I don't see even see the big deal in service m serving Malvern. When they build Sheppard East, they can use the Progress Hydro Corridor to build a spur to Malvern Town Centre. That is actually what was originally planned for the SLRT before they decide to chop the line at Sheppard and Progress.

Centennial College. The bus ride to SC is just not that big a deal. They do it today. The bus can actually be placed better on campus than the LRT station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Most of Scarborough is also no where near the Scarborough Subway alignment, alas.

Northern Scarborough will continue to bus it to Yonge, as will Western Scarborough in the future. Southern Scarborough is nowhere near the subway to STC, and Eastern Scarborough will take Crosstown East straight to Kennedy Station. We are building a subway to STC to benefit just a very small portion of Scarberians in Central Scarborough, intentionally ignoring and depriving actual destinations like Centennial College and Malvern of transit all the while.

I did some calculations based on the TTC Service Summary and discovered the SSE would only save me a few minutes a day (less than 3), vs simply taking a bus to Kennedy. The SSE would be slower for downtown-bound trips than both SmartTrack and the Relief Line extension to Sheppard.

Line 2's problem is it's very close stop spacing, allowing it to achieve average speed of only 29 km/h. Obviously this is a lot slower than both RER and Relief Line Long, who both operate at or in excess of 45 km/h, more than 50% faster.

With the Crosstown East, I'd probably just bypass Line 2 entirely and head downtown via Crosstown East and Relief Line.

 

[kEiThZ]

The SSE vs DRL debate is a false one. The SSE can happen in the next few years. In service by 2022. The DRL till Sheppard is 15 years if I'm very optimistic. Even if they agreed to go that far, they'd be opening it in phases. With Sheppard a long way off.

I remember discussing a hypothetical SRT extension to Markham and Sheppard or a subway extension to SC in the 90s while in high school. I could be in my 50s before any DRL reaches Sheppard. Nobody in Scarborough is going to take that deal. They'd be fools to.

Also, the thesis that traveling to Kennedy is as fast as the subway on a direct bus route never accounts for bus timing, rush hour traffic, etc. It's never that fast in real life. SRT to SC is nearly always faster. And will be all the more so with the subway. Cutting that transfer easily shaves 15 mins during rush hour when people are lined 5 deep on the platform waiting for an SRT.

 

[Steve X]

You nailed it. The SRT failed to attract development. Say no more.

Scarborough subway stations have not been decided yet. Don't be shocked to see atleast 2 around STC & McCowan. They say 1 so the downtown rowdies, media & politicos can take a breath & feel like they've won something in such an overblown fight. If Rosedale, Summerhill, Glencairn, Castlefrank, Chester (approx 33,000 rider/day total) can each get a stop with that putrid ridership surely Scarborough center should have more than 1. I mean all those stop together don't match the current McCowan and STC stop ridership on the RT (approx. 33,000). And we don't even like the RT out here . Just wait to see the ridership on the subway especially of there is a feeder LRT network one day into STC & the development improvement is certain to increase.

True the SRT failed to attract any development. Subways also failed to attract any development. Look at Kennedy, Warden, Main Street, Woodbine, Pape, etc. They were all the same for many years. Rosedale, Summerhill, Glencairn and Castle Frank are all on the surface or close to the surface. They were built rather cheaply compared to this Scarborough subway extension proposal. Unless Scarborough accepts cut and cover like buying all the properties beside McCowan/Danforth, trenching and covering it afterwards, stations won't be cheap.

TBM makes station expensive for being so deep underground.

 

[coffey1]

True the SRT failed to attract any development. Subways also failed to attract any development. Look at Kennedy, Warden, Main Street, Woodbine, Pape, etc. They were all the same for many years. Rosedale, Summerhill, Glencairn and Castle Frank are all on the surface or close to the surface. They were built rather cheaply compared to this Scarborough subway extension proposal. Unless Scarborough accepts cut and cover like buying all the properties beside McCowan/Danforth, trenching and covering it afterwards, stations won't be cheap.

TBM makes station expensive for being so deep underground.

You have managed to scrape up the stops that didn't see the development. I wont list all the ones that are seeing it because you wouldn't have to look to hard.

These areas you mention are not the same type of development areas as STC is. Kennedy is going to change when all this transit shakes out as it needs to be re-zoned & will be. If it wasn't for the zoning restrictions it would be already. The Danforth stops are a different lowrise ball game all together and should not be compared to STC. Subways or quality transit for that matter does drive development.

The RT was sub par in route, transfer inconvenience & what turned out to be poor technology. So not a great selling feature.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Time to build the subway and get on with it! I am so tired of the endless debates.

 

[Duck]

More like time to buy MK 3 vehicles, and be done with it. could be up and running in a year or two, boom.

 

[smallspy]

More like time to buy MK 3 vehicles, and be done with it. could be up and running in a year or two, boom.

As has been covered here many, many, many times before - Mk2 and Mk3 cars will not fit on the SRT as it is currently operated.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

As has been covered here many, many, many times before - Mk2 and Mk3 cars will not fit on the SRT as it is currently operated.

We've also covered many times before, that back in 2006, TTC had given the go ahead (assuming there was funding in the 2007 budget) for the (then) $190 million upgrade of the existing line to extend the stations and modify it for the use of these cars.

No, they can't currently operate them, but modifying the line to use them is a fraction of the cost of the 1-station subway extension.

 

[smallspy]

We've also covered many times before, that back in 2006, TTC had given the go ahead (assuming there was funding in the 2007 budget) for the (then) $190 million upgrade of the existing line to extend the stations and modify it for the use of these cars.

No, they can't currently operate them, but modifying the line to use them is a fraction of the cost of the 1-station subway extension.

But that's not the suggestion currently being made, is it? And I don't know about you, but I still haven't found a way to go back in time to change decisions made 10 (!) years ago.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Duck]

As has been covered here many, many, many times before - Mk2 and Mk3 cars will not fit on the SRT as it is currently operated.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Yep, so spend $190 million and rebuild the Ellesmere tunnel.

...instead of a 2-3 billion dollar stubway with less service.

Edit - nfitz beat me to it.

 

[nfitz]

But that's not the suggestion currently being made, is it?

I don't see why it shouldn't be on the table. The current signed agreement between the province and city is to convert to LRT and extend to Sheppard. However the city has suggested changing this to subway, and not going to Sheppard for $2.5 billion (not including rolling stock, as there is a small surplus of T1 equipment - however they still need to replace that in about 10-15 years). So why then not seriously look at the plan that costs 1/10th of the cost. And if the only stations that are needed is Scarborough Centre and Kennedy, then it gets even cheaper.

Yep, so spend $190 million and rebuild the Ellesmere tunnel.

$190 million was far more than the tunnel. It also updated existing RT, and lengthened the existing stations.

Though also note the 2006 study concluded the tunnel didn't require an major rebuild, unless they converted to LRT (because of the higher vehicle height), just track realignment.

 

[Duck]

So well said. It is unfathomable to me that, however unpopular the rt might be on these forums, it's going to be totally scrapped. It is a significant, pre-existing and functioning piece of transportation infrastructure that can be maintained and built upon, not thrown away. It's so ridiculously wasteful.

Sorry, dead horse, I know...

 

[nfitz]

So well said. It is unfathomable to me that, however unpopular the rt might be on these forums, it's going to be totally scrapped. It is a significant, pre-existing and functioning piece of transportation infrastructure that can be maintained and built upon, not thrown away. It's so ridiculously wasteful.

Sorry, dead horse, I know...

More importantly, it would be significantly cheaper than LRT, because you don't need to do major work on the Ellesmere tunnel.