Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Which again begs the question of how Scarborough Town Centre hopes to compete.

Downtown and Unilever will be more attractive. Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Markham (and Mississauga) will be much cheaper.

If your cost is high, you have to offer something that is value added to make it worth it - in the case of downtown, it's accessibility, the talent pool and a critical mass (in something). You have to create a scenario where these factors exist in SCC.

I wonder if there is a way to capitalize on the ethnoburbia aspect of Scarb.

AoD

 

[salsa]

If your cost is high, you have to offer something that is value added to make it worth it - in the case of downtown, it's accessibility, the talent pool and a critical mass (in something). You have to create a scenario where these factors exist in SCC.

I wonder if there is a way to capitalize on the ethnoburbia aspect of Scarb.

AoD

What did Markham do to attract office development in downtown Markham, most notably Aviva?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What did Markham do to attract office development in downtown Markham, most notably Aviva?

The tech cluster. And it leveraged off the local population.

AoD

 

[WislaHD]

What did Markham do to attract office development in downtown Markham, most notably Aviva?

Aviva is looking to lease some office space in downtown, so I am not sure if they are completely happy with the pending move to Markham.

 

[coffey1]

This graphic created by the planning department is meant to convey the size of Scarborough Centre, but to me it also tells a lot as to why it has been so unsuccessful and poorly planned.

View attachment 69236



In downtown you have small streets, short blocks and a diversity of build forms and land uses that have developed organically over time.

In Scarborough Centre it's the exact opposite. The road network is great for drivers but terrible for pedestrians and urban development. The roads are designed to move cars as quickly as possible. A lot of locations are are missing sidewalks or crosswalks, even in front of McCowan RT station. You have a mall that forms a gaping hole in the road network that prevents any possibility of breaking it up into smaller blocks. The mall is encircled by a ring road that is wider than most downtown streets, which is then surrounded by arterial roads, a highway and a bunch of off ramps. I can't even begin to describe all the things that are wrong with this picture.


View attachment 69256




Glen Murray did a walking tour in July 2013, when the Karen Stintz subway fiasco was just getting started. Here is some of his commentary on twitter:

View attachment 69308 View attachment 69309 View attachment 69310 View attachment 69311





Furthermore, the build form of a lot of existing buildings here are extremely anti-urban.

View attachment 69247

View attachment 69248

View attachment 69249

View attachment 69250

View attachment 69251






As if that wasn't bad enough for street life, all the shops, restaurants, and almost everything there is to do in Scarborough Centre is inside a large shopping mall. It is utterly devoid of any architecture to begin with, but it's also surrounded by parking lots and parking garages, which are then encircled by a ring road that is missing a lot of sidewalks, is lined with big box retail, drive thru restaurants and undeveloped land. The mall is like an ugly fortress against the outside world. Mississauga Centre has a similar problem, however their downtown master plan includes a Main street that will hopefully support an array of retail one day. Maybe, just maybe they will have the population density that can support both a mall and a vibrant street, however I am less optimistic that Scarborough could do the same.

View attachment 69312





Scarborough councillors like to believe that a subway here will be a magic cure-all solution that will spur development and create jobs, but there are so many enormous challenges to overcome than just transit. When you have such a terrible road network, when the few buildings that were ever built here are so badly designed that they destroy street life instead of contributing to it, these fools are kidding themselves if they think a subway alone will change anything.

One of the best things about NYCC that helped make it so successful is that Mel Lastman Square is the centre of activity, rather than a suburban shopping mall. You have a nice public space that hosts events throughout the year, has an amazing public library, civic centre, office buildings, condos, street retail and subway station. An urban area that is planned around transit and pedestrians instead of the car will inevitably have a better outcome. Decades later, the result is a flourishing mini-downtown away from downtown, while Scarborough Centre has somewhat stagnated in recent years. Though coffey1 will probably blame the media for this.

Great post aside form the stab at the end. But if you really think the media is unbiased and not Politically motivated on Toronto's municipal issues. Well... that's unfortunate to hear.

The subway will HELP especially if they can find the political will to provide Scarborough a couple more stops. (Lawrence and another around the center.) You're correct there's more than one issue aside from poor transit connectivity. With no plan to make a pedestrian friendly area and demand developers to build quality architecture the area is in trouble.
But that's really not that hard to do. Its just a matter of Politicians treating Scarborough as a priority & it's own proud City. But what should be easy certainly isn't inside Toronto's political climate.

 

[APTA-2048]

Great post aside form the stab at the end. But if you really think the media is unbiased and not Politically motivated on Toronto's municipal issues. Well... that's unfortunate to hear.

The subway will HELP especially if they can find the political will to provide Scarborough a couple more stops. (Lawrence and another around the center.) You're correct there's more than one issue aside from poor transit connectivity. With no plan to make a pedestrian friendly area and demand developers to build quality architecture the area is in trouble.
But that's really not that hard to do. Its just a matter of Politicians treating Scarborough as a priority & it's own proud City. But what should be easy certainly isn't inside Toronto's political climate.

Don't you have to put some of that blame on Scarborough's own politicians as well?

 

[CapitalSeven]

The subway will HELP especially if they can find the political will to provide Scarborough a couple more stops. (Lawrence and another around the center.)

I doubt that Lawrence will come back given ridership would be low and costs much higher than a Lawrence stop on SmartTrack. My wonky idea on the town centre is to run the subway as a loop around the current mall with a modest stop on the McCowan side and another close to Brimley. I don't think it would cost any more and it would avoid time lost to turnbacks. Very little precedent for an arrangement like that, though.

 

[Tuck]

Great post aside form the stab at the end. But if you really think the media is unbiased and not Politically motivated on Toronto's municipal issues. Well... that's unfortunate to hear.

You act like the hate/bias is undeserved.



In all seriousness though, if Scarborough wants to develop, it comes down to the counsellors that they elected in to do it. Getting a subway stop on its own will do nothing, and I'm concerned thats a lesson Vaughan is about to learn. You can blame the media all you want, but its the counsellors who have not put anything forward.

 

[coffey1]

Don't you have to put some of that blame on Scarborough's own politicians as well?

To an extent 4 sure. . But to get out of this legacy of bad development you need to become a MAJOR priority . Its a completely different game in Toronto's Politics and this may never happen. There are too many pressing needs in the heart of a rapidly growing City to put proper attention to detail & adequate funding to save the long standing pressing needs of suburbs.

Scarborough councilors are stuck in a crazier type of Politics than any 905 City. For every dollar available you have too many hands trying to grab it, and a strong media presence which supports the wealthier class of the City joining the political circus to drown out specific voices. Although they're not off the hook I'm don't really blame them entirely with the chaos.

A subway in Vaughan is great news and if you live there & hardly a peep out of the Toronto media & certainly no internal Vaughan media trying to halt for there own self interest

A subway to the neglected highly populated Scarborough Center is blasphemy and must be fought to the death says Toronto's media.

The media really does nothing good for Scarborough

Instead of building together.... We divide. Really is unfortunate but were likely to see another Polarizing Mayor if Tory cant get the show on the road & shovels near the ground with the latest transit etch a sketch.

 

[Tuck]

To an extent 4 sure. . But to get out of this legacy of bad development you need to become a MAJOR priority . Its a completely different game in Toronto's Politics and this may never happen. There are too many pressing needs in the heart of a rapidly growing City to put proper attention to detail & adequate funding to save the long standing pressing needs of suburbs.

Scarborough councilors are stuck in a different & crazier type of Politics than any 905 City. For every dollar available you have too many hands trying to grab it, and a strong media presence which supports the wealthier class of the City joining the political circus to drown out specific voices. Although they're not off the hook I'm not sure I really blame them.

A subway in Vaughan is great news and if you live there & hardly a peep out of the Toronto media & certainly no internal Vaughan media trying to halt for there own self interest

A subway to the neglected highly populated Scarborough Center is blasphemy and must be fought to the death says Toronto's media.

Instead of building together.... We divide. Really is unfortunate but were likely to see another Polarizing Mayor if Tory cant get the show on the road & shovels near the ground with the latest transit etch a sketch.

Ok you're gonna have to walk me through this. Scarborough politicians somehow have enough political clout to get a subway built to scarborough in spite of a fully funded alternative and a bunch of well educated individuals (and the media, in your own words) speaking out loudly against it.

And yet... they can't seem to put together a plan to intensify?

Sorry, but you can't lay that at the feet of the lack of a subway. The Scarborough RT has existed for years, and sure, its a clunky mess now, but thats because the city chose to neglect it for years. Scarborough had it, and chose not to make effective use of it for development. Plenty of cities develop without a subway. From what I can tell, the subway arguement is just an excuse.

Finally (and with all due respect), you're guilty of the us-versus-them argument too. In almost every post you make you bring up the evil media and how those dastardly city-dwellers are out to steal your subway. The us-versus-them argument works both ways. No one wanted to deny scarborough its rapid transit, we just wanted to get the best bang for our collective buck. A city does *NOT* need a subway to develop. And Scarborough would not have been the only area of the city getting an LRT. You can *NOT* compare Scarborough to downtown toronto - thats apples and oranges. You can however compare it to North Work and Etobicoke, and surprise surprise, they're getting an LRT.

 

[coffey1]

http://torontoist.com/2016/03/duly-quoted-john-tory-on-investment-in-scarborough/

Tory's statement is wishy-wash. He acknowledges Scarborough's neglect in all levels of investment & planning.. But he ends off by hinting there wont be any urgency. I don't want to see divisive politics whatsoever but unless this becomes a major priority the voice of those fighting for Scarborough will be ignored and drowned out in the pro Metro media.

We don't need talk we need action & soon. Scarborough already missed the boat on arguably the biggest building boom in Ontario's history where those areas with a plan flourished. There are groups like Rotary who have done the leg work & drafted a plan in hopes Politician will take it seriously. Until it's more than talk it means nothing & if it has to ruffle the feathers of the political stronghold in the City so be it. The neglect needs to stop & someone needs to step up.

 

[Tuck]

Yes, someone should step up.

Like, say, the scarborough councilors. They were able to get a subway, I think they should be able to push forward a redevelopment plan. Stop trying to pass the responsibility to the other areas of the city and start laying blame at the feet of the councilors that you elected.

 

[Rainforest]

Scarborough councillors like to believe that a subway here will be a magic cure-all solution that will spur development and create jobs, but there are so many enormous challenges to overcome than just transit.

Indeed, it is doubtful that extending the subway to STC will trigger a lot of new development; and it certainly will not change the urban form.

But it will significantly help the existing transit riders. Scarborough has a high level of existing transit ridership; a lot more than Markham or Vaughan. The subway extension will cut the commute times for many of the existing riders.

Transit expansion must take into account the interests of existing riders; not just of people who will move into the neighborhood in future when and if that neighborhood intensifies and becomes more pedestrian-friendly.

 

[darth_freeman]

Finally (and with all due respect), you're guilty of the us-versus-them argument too. In almost every post you make you bring up the evil media and how those dastardly city-dwellers are out to steal your subway. The us-versus-them argument works both ways. No one wanted to deny scarborough its rapid transit, we just wanted to get the best bang for our collective buck. A city does *NOT* need a subway to develop. And Scarborough would not have been the only area of the city getting an LRT. You can *NOT* compare Scarborough to downtown toronto - thats apples and oranges. You can however compare it to North Work and Etobicoke, and surprise surprise, they're getting an LRT.

If you hadn't noticed, North York and Etobicoke already have subways into their "core", so I don't really see your point.

If anything it shows Scarborough is missing a subway that North York/Etobicoke already have (and have had for 30+ years!).

 

[Tuck]

If you hadn't noticed, North York and Etobicoke already have subways into their "core", so I don't really see your point.

I believe my point was quite clear. An area does not need a subway to intensify. On this, I am objectively correct. My evidence: the countless US cities without a subway who have developed just fine, or used light rail. Or better yet (And closer to home), downtown Hamilton or the new downtown Mississauga. That last one is especially appropriate since the entire area is based around a suburban mall. Sound familiar?

If anything it shows Scarborough is missing a subway that North York/Etobicoke already have (and have had for 30+ years!).

'Scarborough DESERVES a subway!!!!!!!!111111"