Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The commercial growth in the outer districts died as part of amalgamation. NY, Scar & Etobicoke all had lower commercial rates and incentives for offices near their respective development areas. Without this incentive builders have decided to be downtown (which causes strain on our transit network). The only way to reinvigorate these areas would be for Toronto to give some commercial tax breaks for development (which would encourage shorter commute times and reverse commuting).

Except that they missed the 905 office boom in the 90s as well even prior to amalgamation.

AoD

 

[Edward Skira]

The RT was not a selling feature & the subway will certainly help to an extent. But there's a bigger problem driving the lack of investment in Scarborough.

It all stems from municipal political chaos, local political media portraying an inferior image & lack of leadership to invest in growing Toronto's suburbs as a true priority. Land is expensive everywhere in the GTA not just Toronto.. Mississauga sells, Markham sells, Richmond Hill sells, Burlington, Oakville, etc. They all invest heavily & as a main priority to attract & promote developers to build quality projects to leave a strong legacy which can be built upon.

The lack of growth at STC is a result of economics more than anything else. Extending the subway here will not change a thing. Offices are going downtown or to 905. You won't be seeing much in terms of office space here or in NYCC, ECC or even downtown Mississauga for that matter as the economics favour downtown and greenfield 905. And the situation with residential is quite the same. The land in STC is a bit cheaper than downtown so that's a benefit to this area. But land is but a small part of the cost. Construction costs on the other hand are the same here as downtown. Labour costs, construction materials etc are basically the same. Yet prices that the developers can charge downtown are much higher which is why they are not building in STC. Less profit from building here. A subway stop will not change that.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The offices going out to the 905 would the ones closest to the CEO's golf course.

 

[am29]

A very bad assumption. Don't expect much growth in the area even if the subway is extended. Construction costs in the area are the same as downtown yet prices they can sell at are much lower. Harder to make a profit in Scarborough.

Out of curiosity why is that so? Also, what are your thoughts on why Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, RH, and Markham are experiencing faster growth than in Scarborough?

 

[coffey1]

Out of curiosity why is that so? Also, what are your thoughts on why Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, RH, and Markham are experiencing faster growth than in Scarborough?

Toronto puts its suburbs as the last priority with investment of any kind in the City and the downtown centric Political media giants adds a stigma to the "suburbs" for whatever reason. The 905 City's governments are their own main priorities and attracting business to their individual suburb has been a #1 priority the last decade or so. They beautify & enhance their landmarks, revitalize their main streets with quality developments which are usually well thought out. Scarborough... well it's a bit hard to be a priority in a City where the majority of Political strength surrounds the core. The resistance and dysfunction makes it impossible to gain any traction.

Ask the upset residents Scarborough Village about how Toronto revitalizes priority neighborhoods. That massive homeless shelter on the main road recently announced will surely help this area in need of a facelift. The citizens fought it but the wealthier areas near the core want to play kick ball to build luxury condos closer to the core.

Great job Toronto... Keep fighting that good fight to put Scarborough on a separate transit system full of patched LRT's. I mean you fought them back down to a one stop subway with no shovels in sight. So there's still time to do more destruction

 

[salsa]

This graphic created by the planning department is meant to convey the size of Scarborough Centre, but to me it also tells a lot as to why it has been so unsuccessful and poorly planned.

In downtown you have small streets, short blocks and a diversity of build forms and land uses that have developed organically over time.

In Scarborough Centre it's the exact opposite. The road network is great for drivers but terrible for pedestrians and urban development. The roads are designed to move cars as quickly as possible. A lot of locations are are missing sidewalks or crosswalks, even in front of McCowan RT station. You have a mall that forms a gaping hole in the road network that prevents any possibility of breaking it up into smaller blocks. The mall is encircled by a ring road that is wider than most downtown streets, which is then surrounded by arterial roads, a highway and a bunch of off ramps. I can't even begin to describe all the things that are wrong with this picture.

Glen Murray did a walking tour in July 2013, when the Karen Stintz subway fiasco was just getting started. Here is some of his commentary on twitter:

Furthermore, the build form of a lot of existing buildings here are extremely anti-urban.

As if that wasn't bad enough for street life, all the shops, restaurants, and almost everything there is to do in Scarborough Centre is inside a large shopping mall. It is utterly devoid of any architecture to begin with, but it's also surrounded by parking lots and parking garages, which are then encircled by a ring road that is missing a lot of sidewalks, is lined with big box retail, drive thru restaurants and undeveloped land. The mall is like an ugly fortress against the outside world. Mississauga Centre has a similar problem, however their downtown master plan includes a Main street that will hopefully support an array of retail one day. Maybe, just maybe they will have the population density that can support both a mall and a vibrant street, however I am less optimistic that Scarborough could do the same.

Scarborough councillors like to believe that a subway here will be a magic cure-all solution that will spur development and create jobs, but there are so many enormous challenges to overcome than just transit. When you have such a terrible road network, when the few buildings that were ever built here are so badly designed that they destroy street life instead of contributing to it, these fools are kidding themselves if they think a subway alone will change anything.

One of the best things about NYCC that helped make it so successful is that Mel Lastman Square is the centre of activity, rather than a suburban shopping mall. You have a nice public space that hosts events throughout the year, has an amazing public library, civic centre, office buildings, condos, street retail and subway station. An urban area that is planned around transit and pedestrians instead of the car will inevitably have a better outcome. Decades later, the result is a flourishing mini-downtown away from downtown, while Scarborough Centre has somewhat stagnated in recent years. Though coffey1 will probably blame the media for this.

 

[ShonTron]

You've convinced me to take a walk through Scarborough Centre. It explains too why North York Centre is much more successful. It's not so much the subway (though it does matter), it's the old street grid and multiple layers of development.

 

[WislaHD]

I look forward to hearing about how Scarborough Town Centre will be able to compete with the Unilever site, who is pushing for 10 million square feet of office space.

(For comparison, Canary Wharf in London, UK is 14 million square feet of office space)

 

[Cobra]

I still believe that STC has potential to be a dynamic and vibrant "Gate to the east"...the question is: Does Toronto has the audacity and will to rethink STC completely? As is, it's success it very much so limited.

Perhaps STC could be a transit hub, entertainment area while its downtown core for mix level high-rise development should be moved somewhere else like the McCowan-Sheppard area?

Sheppard Avenue East which already have lots of redevelopment projects and existing towers could emulate North York Centre's Yonge street. Yonge being the main artery for highrises and business while slowly expanding beyond that main street. This is a much more realistic model to follow for Scarborough. As long as they bank it all on the STC mall, it will be an utter failure...subway or not.

 

[muller877]

I look forward to hearing about how Scarborough Town Centre will be able to compete with the Unilever site, who is pushing for 10 million square feet of office space.

(For comparison, Canary Wharf in London, UK is 14 million square feet of office space)

I honestly believe the Unilever plan is a classic bait and switch. Propose commercial, get a lot of transit and then change it all to condo's. The pessimist's view.

Before we build any transit to this site the City should demand an ironclad agreement on the minimum amount of commercial density on this site. Agreed to by all parties and attached to the deed.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I honestly believe the Unilever plan is a classic bait and switch. Propose commercial, get a lot of transit and then change it all to condo's. The pessimist's view.

Before we build any transit to this site the City should demand an ironclad agreement on the minimum amount of commercial density on this site. Agreed to by all parties and attached to the deed.

Just how much fundamentally new transit is it getting though - the proposed RL alignment passes north of it, and the RER station is sort going there regardless anyways. I mean, if you want to iron-clad anything (not that the city is particularly keen on rezoning office into condos necessarily), shouldn't we be doing that for extensions to peripheral greenfield development areas that foresee massive increases in density and actually demands costly lines/extension to service instead?

AoD

 

[salsa]

You've convinced me to take a walk through Scarborough Centre. It explains too why North York Centre is much more successful. It's not so much the subway (though it does matter), it's the old street grid and multiple layers of development.

I always enjoy reading your commentary on twitter, so I look forward to it. I'm also now tempted to do a walking tour. Besides, it's been a long time since I had an excuse to ride the Scarborough RT.

 

[salsa]

I look forward to hearing about how Scarborough Town Centre will be able to compete with the Unilever site, who is pushing for 10 million square feet of office space.

(For comparison, Canary Wharf in London, UK is 14 million square feet of office space)

However Unilever will also have to compete with the downtown core which has a lot of development proposals at the moment, which will take time to build and lease to tenants. It remains to be seen whether the downtown office market will be strong enough over the next couple of decades. But lately it's been gaining momentum, partly because some employers are moving out of the suburbs. Hopefully this trend will continue. Imagine if there were a mass exodus from the Vaughan business parks, that alone would easily fill up the Unilever site.

 

[WislaHD]

However Unilever will also have to compete with the downtown core which has a lot of development proposals at the moment, which will take time to build and lease to tenants. It remains to be seen whether the downtown office market will be strong enough over the next couple of decades. But lately it's been gaining momentum, partly because some employers are moving out of the suburbs. Hopefully this trend will continue. Imagine if there were a mass exodus from the Vaughan business parks, that alone would easily fill up the Unilever site.

Which again begs the question of how Scarborough Town Centre hopes to compete.

Downtown and Unilever will be more attractive. Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Markham (and Mississauga) will be much cheaper.

 

[marcus_a_j]

Great post, Salsa! It essentially captures what I was thinking during the first of the recent Toronto/Metrolinx consultation meetings, in that the existing built form, layout, connections, etc. are a major hindrance to any major economic development opportunities. It's one think to get the subway extended to Scarborough Centre, but the real challenge is the "first mile/last mile" scenario once there. The only comfortable area to walk is around the existing STC RT station that connects to the mall, Albert Campbell Square and the Civic Centre. @ShonTron - have a fun walk around there! (Dylan and I (Mark J.) were talking about doing a SC walk very recently, actually).

There is some hope for Scarborough Centre. The City has prepared some plans to improve the streetscape and public spaces in SC, though these might have to be revisited with the SSE in the mix.

Scarborough Centre Public Space and Streetscape Master Plan

McCowan Precinct Plan Study