Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[RyanM12]

The problem with the Scarborough Subway is amalgamation. York Region can build subways to Vaughan and Richmond Hill because they can decide for themselves what happens north of Steeles. If Scarborough were still it's own city there would be no question that the BD extension would be built. But instead, Scarborough has to rely on decisions made at Bay & Queen.

Unless someone has spent at least a week commuting on the SRT at rush hour, I don't consider their opinion valid. Google maps can't tell the whole story.

The problem with the SRT is not just the transfer, but the trains are too small, and more importantly, it's badly routed. The SRT was built through the easiest available route, not where it was needed. The McCowan route is what should've been built 30 years ago.

A station Lawrence and McCowan will be well used. Ellesemere and Midland stations on the SRT are unnecessary; if the SRT route is kept, at least one of them should be closed. Scarborough Centre station should be closer to the 401 so an additional station can be at the McCowan/Ellesmere intersection -- but only if it's redeveloped. There should also be a station at Brimley/Danforth/Eglinton, to relieve Kennedy by connecting to eastbound routes. I also think the area around Kennedy should be redeveloped, particularly that horrible bridge should be removed so the area can actually be accessible for pedestrians (busses get stuck trying to climb the bridge in the slush in the winter). Sheppard East will also be a well used station.

Personally, I don't think the Scarborough Subway is the best solution --but it's the best of the options on the table. Here's what I would do: Replace the SRT with EMU's on rail tracks, so that it can run express from Kennedy to Union, (maybe stopping to connect with the DRL at Queen/Degrassi) on a single TTC fare. This would provide done relief for the BD. And if it stays on the SRT corridor, it should only have stations at Union, Queen, Kennedy, Lawrence East, Midland, STC (on the EAST side of the mall), progress/Centennial, Sheppard East, Malvern, Finch/Morningside. A similar EMU line could run in the west end, connecting Mississauga/Square One with Kipling and union.

 

[TOareaFan]

The problem with the Scarborough Subway is amalgamation. York Region can build subways to Vaughan and Richmond Hill because they can decide for themselves what happens north of Steeles. If Scarborough were still it's own city there would be no question that the BD extension would be built. But instead, Scarborough has to rely on decisions made at Bay & Queen.

Pre-amalgamation......did the TTC not fall under the Municality of Metropolitan Toronto? If so, are decisions at Bay & Queen that much different than decisions at 67 Adelaide East? or then Bay & Queen (shared with City)? or then Bay and Richmond? or, ultimately, at King and John?

 

[nfitz]

If Scarborough were still it's own city there would be no question that the BD extension would be built. But instead, Scarborough has to rely on decisions made at Bay & Queen.

So, for example then, if Mississauga was it's own city, then the Bloor line would be extended there? Mississauga is only 15 km down Bloor from Bay - which is closer than Scarborough Centre, when is 19 km.

I don't think it's this simple.

 

[RyanM12]

So, for example then, if Mississauga was it's own city, then the Bloor line would be extended there? Mississauga is only 15 km down Bloor from Bay - which is closer than Scarborough Centre, when is 19 km.

I don't think it's this simple.

Sure, if they supported it, put the proposal together, and agreed to raise taxes for it. Nobody's talking about it now, they have other projects they're working on (dundas, eglinton).

 

[gweed123]

So, for example then, if Mississauga was it's own city, then the Bloor line would be extended there? Mississauga is only 15 km down Bloor from Bay - which is closer than Scarborough Centre, when is 19 km.

I don't think it's this simple.

I think it could very well be in discussion if Mississauga wanted it. Mississauga however is more focused on it's internal transit network than building connections to neighbouring cities. York Region has chosen to build its network in such a way that it's principally E-W and relies on connections to the Yonge-Spadina Subway for the N-S travel south of their E-W axis. Mississauga chose instead to put it's eggs into the Hurontario LRT basket (it's principal N-S axis), with only BRT connections to neighbouring cities (with the exception of Brampton).

Surely it's not as simple as "neighbouring cities can ask for it and they'll automatically receive it", but there is something to be said for a neighbouring City or Region expressly identifying what their transit priorities are, and how they want to connect to the larger neighbouring city. For them it's Priority #1, and they can devote all of their resources (both financial and political) to achieving it. Toronto is/was trying to build 4 projects at the same time, so that financial and political focus isn't there to the same degree.

I would agree with the premise that if Scarborough was like Mississauga and was a completely independent entity from the City of Toronto, that a Bloor-Danforth Subway extension to STC probably would have happened a long time ago. In Scarborough that subway would have been Priority #1 for decades. Within Metro, there were other projects that it had to share the priority list with.

 

[jaybe]

Sheppard and McCowan is 23km from Bay and Front. Square One in Mississauga is 26km from Bay and Front.

Scarborough is served by one highway - the 401. (yes, the DVP and 407 are just outside their boundary).
Mississauga is served by the QEW, 401, 403, 407, 410 and 427.

Scarborough is dramatically underserviced by public transit and highways. There are dramatic bottlenecks in moving from Scarborough to other regions of the city. This isolation is the likely reason for low housing prices and fewer jobs. I would argue that Scarborough needs investment in better transit more than any other part of the GTA.

The proposed subway extension is the best option when combined with LRT's and BRT. It will serve as a transit backbone and connect commuters from Malvern, Agincourt, Miliken, UTSC and Centennial College with access to a reliable and regular transit service into the core and elsewhere.

 

[smallspy]

The problem with the Scarborough Subway is amalgamation. York Region can build subways to Vaughan and Richmond Hill because they can decide for themselves what happens north of Steeles. If Scarborough were still it's own city there would be no question that the BD extension would be built. But instead, Scarborough has to rely on decisions made at Bay & Queen.

Except that in the 44 years that Scarborough was its own city, they never paid one red cent into rapid transit expansion above and beyond their scheduled contributions into Metro.

You can't go using the "But Amalgamation happened!!!!" bullshit if you had your own chance to do something about it and decide not to.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[aquateam]

The proposed subway extension is the best option when combined with LRT's and BRT. It will serve as a transit backbone and connect commuters from Malvern, Agincourt, Miliken, UTSC and Centennial College with access to a reliable and regular transit service into the core and elsewhere.

The SLRT could have been extended to Malvern and would have had a stop at Centennial College. The subway does not go near centennial college and will mark the end of the Bloor Danforth line for quite some time.

The SELRT will go to UTSC. A Sheppard subway extension would terminate at STC.

Milliken and Agincourt should be the strongest proponents of GO RER because then they would have a direct, one-seat ride into the core.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The proposed subway extension is the best option when combined with LRT's and BRT. It will serve as a transit backbone and connect commuters from Malvern, Agincourt, Miliken, UTSC and Centennial College with access to a reliable and regular transit service into the core and elsewhere.

Really? Our GO RER plan serves Scarborough far better. There's no reason to extend Line 2 east from Kennedy for the foreseeable future.

 

[WislaHD]

Really? Our GO RER plan serves Scarborough far better. There's no reason to extend Line 2 east from Kennedy for the foreseeable future.

Really? Our GO RER plan serves Mississauga far better. There's no reason to extend Line 2 west from Kipling for the foreseeable future.

Scarborough is roughly the same distance away from downtown as Mississauga. This last page is really putting the Scarborough extension in context.

Perhaps we should be prioritizing the Seaton GO RER line too. That said I still think that the best option for Scarborough would be investment in new ICTS technology. However, good luck trying to propose anything remotely similar to the current SRT in Scarborough today.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sheppard and McCowan is 23km from Bay and Front. Square One in Mississauga is 26km from Bay and Front.

Scarborough is served by one highway - the 401. (yes, the DVP and 407 are just outside their boundary).
Mississauga is served by the QEW, 401, 403, 407, 410 and 427.

Scarborough is dramatically underserviced by public transit and highways. There are dramatic bottlenecks in moving from Scarborough to other regions of the city. This isolation is the likely reason for low housing prices and fewer jobs. I would argue that Scarborough needs investment in better transit more than any other part of the GTA.

The proposed subway extension is the best option when combined with LRT's and BRT. It will serve as a transit backbone and connect commuters from Malvern, Agincourt, Miliken, UTSC and Centennial College with access to a reliable and regular transit service into the core and elsewhere.

So do you want more highways too? If we did that, then the complaint would be that people go through Scarborough to get somewhere else.

 

[44 North]

Somewhat O/T, but is there general consensus that SmartTrack and the Scarboro Subway are the same thing?
I believe they are, and as a result a great deal of SmartTrack/ Stouffville-Kitchener RER is by default already funded.

 

[innsertnamehere]

what? how are they the same thing?

 

[BurlOak]

Somewhat O/T, but is there general consensus that SmartTrack and the Scarboro Subway are the same thing?
I believe they are, and as a result a great deal of SmartTrack/ Stouffville-Kitchener RER is by default already funded.

I do not think they are the same at all. Tory had repeatedly said that he would extend the subway to STC.
SmartTrack and RER may indeed be the same thing, but I think they (Tory, Councillors, MPPs) are committed to a B-D subway extension as well.

 

[44 North]

what? how are they the same thing?

Well, it's being labeled as a subway. And it runs through Scarborough; while serving Kennedy, Lawrence, and Sheppard.

During the early Scarborough Subway debates, I recall the Libs (maybe Wynne or Murray) saying they're going to look at Scarb Subway solutions using the Stouffville corridor. I did a quick Google search and can't find where I heard this info. But I thought it was noteworthy at the time, considering it's common knowledge that the subway at Kennedy can't be connected to the the GO line. This naturally leads me to believe that SmartTrack is the subway, and that the masses haven't woken up to this fact yet.