Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[ehlow]

ehlow -

I think you maybe misinterpreted me. I wasn't talking specifically about the ECLRT, or at least its subway component, but rather the Finch and Sheppard LRTs and the Eglinton East surface ROW.

The Crosstown's underground portion is, in every way, a subway. It has subway costs, subway design and subway performance.

As has been pointed out extensively here before though, the surface LRT components will have route design largely similar to the surface routes they are replacing, so as to provide "local" service, with most assuming a stop spacing of 400-500m.

As for vehicle capacity, yes, you are right. LRVs can have significantly higher capacities than even articulated buses. So what, though? The only way it makes a difference is if you start reducing frequencies to compensate (e.g. 4-5 huge LRVs/hour as opposed to 20 buses/hour). The problem then becomes you're making people wait longer, slowing down their trip!

Fair enough. Although I will point out that the surface part of Eglinton does have wider stop spacing than the current bus does.
I used google maps to count the existing bus stops that won't have LRT stops, I counted 10 stops removed from the surface portion.

Increasing vehicle capacity matters if you want to increase the capacity of the line. The buses are very full at rush hour. The frequencies of the Eglinton LRT should be quite good, my impression from going to the public meetings is that it will be about the same as the subway. It's better to have one LRV than 5 full buses bunched together on the road.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

As has been pointed out extensively here before though, the surface LRT components will have route design largely similar to the surface routes they are replacing, so as to provide "local" service, with most assuming a stop spacing of 400-500m.

The surface portion of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT has an average stop spacing similar to that of the Bloor-Danforth Subway (about 700 meters). If I'm remembering correctly, the closest stop on the Eglinton Crosstown are 550 meters apart. Nothing in 400 meter territory.

 

[ehlow]

The surface portion of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT has an average stop spacing similar to that of the Bloor-Danforth Subway (about 700 meters). If I'm remembering correctly, the closest stop on the Eglinton Crosstown are 550 meters apart. Nothing in 400 meter territory.

One other comment is, the amount of that each stop slows down the vehicle decreases proportionally to the amount of time spent at each stop. With all-door, low-floor boarding and removing the requirement to pay when boarding, this significantly decreases time spent not moving per stop.

Currently it takes a very long time when people line up, each person pays the fare and many have trouble getting up the stairs or pushing their stroller/cart up the stairs.

 

[ehlow]

I actually think we should use the new artic buses on Eglinton, since the LRT is still 6-7 years away from opening. Currently we flood the street with buses, and it'll get worse with construction, as it is in the west side already.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

A Flexity LRV has 2 double wide doors, and 2 single doors. Compare that to a bus having 2 doors (or 3 for an artic). Loading and unloading for a rail vehicle will always be quicker than a bus.

A good example is the 19 loading on Robert Speck parkway. It takes at 2 minutes for riders to load/unload.

 

[diminutive]

A Flexity LRV has 2 double wide doors, and 2 single doors. Compare that to a bus having 2 doors (or 3 for an artic). Loading and unloading for a rail vehicle will always be quicker than a bus.

Though, if you compare vehicle capacity to doors, buses and LRVs end up comparable. 160ppl on an LRV with the door layout you describe would be 27ppl/door (counting double doors as 2 doors). The new artics at 77ppl with 3 doors works out to 25ppl/door.

Buses may still be a bit slower since the stops wont be as level as LRTs (big issue with mobility impaired customers), but let's be clear that the bulk of the slow loading time seen on the TTC is a function of antiquated boarding practices.

 

[ehlow]

Though, if you compare vehicle capacity to doors, buses and LRVs end up comparable. 160ppl on an LRV with the door layout you describe would be 27ppl/door (counting double doors as 2 doors). The new artics at 77ppl with 3 doors works out to 25ppl/door.

Buses may still be a bit slower since the stops wont be as level as LRTs (big issue with mobility impaired customers), but let's be clear that the bulk of the slow loading time seen on the TTC is a function of antiquated boarding practices.

I think that everything you mentioned to enhance bus service should be done on major routes that are over capacity (where people can't get on the bus since it's too full):
-stop spacing at minimum 500m, maybe less at some very urban & dense places, but generally wider than they are now, which is VERY close stop spacing
-POP to speed up boarding, all door, I guess presto will help here
-higher capacity vehicles at similar frequencies to reduce crowding (articulated buses). Comfort matters too, last time I took Eglinton, people were literally stepping on my feet & legs

It should also be done on streetcar routes, same situation.
My main concern is that it's so difficult to sell wider stop spacing, and I think it becomes more difficult if you're not changing the technology at the same time.

 

[TOareaFan]

One candidate for Mayor would cancel the subway.

http://www.soknacki2014.com/david_s...x_increase_for_toronto_s_largest_ever_tax_cut

 

[Solid Snake]

One candidate for Mayor would cancel the subway.

http://www.soknacki2014.com/david_s...x_increase_for_toronto_s_largest_ever_tax_cut

He just lost (or never had) Scarborough

 

[TOareaFan]

He just lost (or never had) Scarborough

Who knows....he is, afterall, from that neck of the woods.

Maybe he thinks he can get to the 4 areas/neighbourhoods that don't get stations/access to the subway but would get stations in the LRT and that those 4 areas could help him get votes in Scarborough....as for the rest of the city he can sell the idea that he will provide transit to Scarborough while not saddling the whole city with a $1B cost....might work...who knows!

 

[ehlow]

I would think there are many in Scarborough who never take transit and never will, and some of those prefer the LRT if their taxes go up for a subway, since the subway doesn't really affect them, but taxes would.

 

[Electrify]

Isn't he also proposing a cable car along the DVP as well?

I think we just found the Rossi for this election.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The Bronx is getting a new express route with a handful of stops straight to Penn Station, with a Queens stop thrown in too. Could sure do with something like that for Scarborough.

 

[nfitz]

The Bronx is getting a new express route with a handful of stops straight to Penn Station, with a Queens stop thrown in too. Could sure do with something like that for Scarborough.

Oh? Hadn't heard this. Presumably a new service utilizing long-existing express tracks?

 

[M II A II R II K]