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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

58% grade seperated (11.2) and 42% "not grade seperated", and 14 intersections, 7 of which probably can't be given complete priority. The other 7 serve minor roads that can probably be allowed to give full priority to the LRTs. The surface portion will be quite fast.

This x1,000,000.

People keep on acting as if the surface ROW on the ECLRT is slow. It won't be. Not even close. On the Eglinton Crosswtown, the enitre ROW portion adds only another 4 minutes to trip times when compared to if it were a subway. And when considering that most people probably won't be using the whole ROW portion of the line for their trips, the time probably amounts to somewhere around a mere 2 minutes.
 
This x1,000,000.

People keep on acting as if the surface ROW on the ECLRT is slow. It won't be. Not even close. On the Eglinton Crosswtown, the enitre ROW portion adds only another 4 minutes to trip times when compared to if it were a subway. And when considering that most people probably won't be using the whole ROW portion of the line for their trips, the time probably amounts to somewhere around a mere 2 minutes.

It's little use trying to convince people why surface ROW isn't a big deal. People are fixated that you can only have rapid transit with total grade separation, and as few stations as possible. It's a pretty narrow-minded way to look at transit, but what can you do?
 
Maybe too many stops.

From the Finch West LRT environmental assessment:
TTC developed a micro-simulation to examine the impacts of stop spacing on the example of the Sheppard East LRT. A stop spacing of 800 metres resulted in a route speed of 26-27 km/h, while a stop spacing of 400 metres had a route speed of 22-23 km/h. The wider spacing did not result in as much of a speed advantage as expected; while the LRT stopped less often, the time for customers to board took twice as long per stop (same number of passengers collected at half the stops) and the LRT still had delays due to red lights at signalized intersections in between stops (although the model accounted for possible signal priority to reduce such delays).

The wider spacing scenario was not selected because the full impact of the increased speed of the LRT applies only to those walking directly to LRT stops. Those boarding local buses at bus stops in between LRT stops have a shorter walk, but a longer waiting time for service and a transfer to the LRT after a very short bus ride.

In recognition of these results, the recommendation for stop spacing for the Etobicoke-Finch West line is in the order of 400 to 600 metres, depending upon the pattern of development and the location of cross-streets, with an expected average speed of 22 to 23 km/h; this is considered to be the best balance between the overall route speed and good local access. The stop spacing may be greater at some locations for the Etobicoke-Finch West LRT due to terrain and undeveloped zones along the corridor, as well as the interchange and related roadways at Highway 400. For purposes of comparison, during peak operating conditions, the average speed of the Bloor-Danforth subway line is 30 km/h, the 36 Finch West bus service is 17 km/h, and the 510 Spadina streetcar service is 14 km/h.

To summarize:
- 400m spacing: 22-23 km/h --> 32 min travel time
- 800m spacing: 26-27 km/h --> 28 min travel time

And that's for the Sheppard LRT. So you're really not saving much time by getting rid of stations, especially if people will be forced to walk more to get to the nearest stop.
 
It's little use trying to convince people why surface ROW isn't a big deal. People are fixated that you can only have rapid transit with total grade separation, and as few stations as possible. It's a pretty narrow-minded way to look at transit, but what can you do?

I can't support the ECLRT because it's not rapid transit but remove 2-3 stops to save 1 minute of travel time and the project would have my undying love and support!!!!111
 
This x1,000,000.

People keep on acting as if the surface ROW on the ECLRT is slow. It won't be. Not even close. On the Eglinton Crosswtown, the enitre ROW portion adds only another 4 minutes to trip times when compared to if it were a subway. And when considering that most people probably won't be using the whole ROW portion of the line for their trips, the time probably amounts to somewhere around a mere 2 minutes.

Though, this goes both ways in that the surface ROWs aren't usually terribly faster than the bus routes they're replacing. Most of these buses are averaging 18-20km/h compared to the 22-24km/h surface LRTs, though the gap between LRT travel times and status quo would be a bit higher in rush hour.

Like you say, since most riders don't ride the whole line, this would usually only work out to a few minutes per trip. Those time savings could be negated by the longer headways implied by Transit City.

If you were comparing an 'enhanced' bus service (i.e. POP/Alldoor boarding, rush-hour lanes/queue jumps, slightly wider spacing) the gap between bus and LRT would be smaller.

This isn't a criticism of LRT, just trying to comment that it seems to be trying to fix something which really isn't broken (local bus transit) through rather expensive projects. Riders would benefit far more from incremental upgrades to the existing surface network and better frequencies.
 
Though, this goes both ways in that the surface ROWs aren't usually terribly faster than the bus routes they're replacing. Most of these buses are averaging 18-20km/h compared to the 22-24km/h surface LRTs, though the gap between LRT travel times and status quo would be a bit higher in rush hour.

Like you say, since most riders don't ride the whole line, this would usually only work out to a few minutes per trip. Those time savings could be negated by the longer headways implied by Transit City.

If you were comparing an 'enhanced' bus service (i.e. POP/Alldoor boarding, rush-hour lanes/queue jumps, slightly wider spacing) the gap between bus and LRT would be smaller.

This isn't a criticism of LRT, just trying to comment that it seems to be trying to fix something which really isn't broken (local bus transit) through rather expensive projects. Riders would benefit far more from incremental upgrades to the existing surface network and better frequencies.

It will be much faster than the current local buses:
-the current buses always get stuck in rush hour traffic, LRT is immune. Traffic will only get worse in this city.
-when the bus is busy people get off every stop, it takes a long time to get people to pay their fare and go up the stairs, so dwell time per station is long. this is made worse by the fact that the buses are completely packed
-the bus stops have MUCH closer stop spacing than the LRT, especially the central part of Eglinton, which multiplies the delay for each stop
-the LRT allows people to go "across" Yonge without switching buses

Having said that, the buses perform better at night at less busy hours, since there is less traffic and it doesn't stop at every stop. Also, you're right that an enhanced bus service with the same stop spacing as the LRT would be much closer to the LRT. More more you change the bus line to be like the LRT the faster and better it gets.
 
It will be much faster than the current local buses:
-the current buses always get stuck in rush hour traffic, LRT is immune. Traffic will only get worse in this city.

People should be aware that average travel speeds are exactly that: average travel seeds.

It includes both peak and off-peak travel times. So that 18km/h average bus speed includes 11PM busses running at top speed with only a few passengers on board as well as busses that run at peak usage, when most riders use the system and the busses are stuck in traffic. So this methodology obviously inflates the numbers in favour of the busses, since the light rail lines will run at a reliably 22 km/h.
 
It will be much faster than the current local buses:
-the current buses always get stuck in rush hour traffic, LRT is immune. Traffic will only get worse in this city.
-when the bus is busy people get off every stop, it takes a long time to get people to pay their fare and go up the stairs, so dwell time per station is long. this is made worse by the fact that the buses are completely packed
-the bus stops have MUCH closer stop spacing than the LRT, especially the central part of Eglinton, which multiplies the delay for each stop
-the LRT allows people to go "across" Yonge without switching buses

Having said that, the buses perform better at night at less busy hours, since there is less traffic and it doesn't stop at every stop. Also, you're right that an enhanced bus service with the same stop spacing as the LRT would be much closer to the LRT. More more you change the bus line to be like the LRT the faster and better it gets.

And as discussed in the Midtown thread, we are expecting an additional 23,000 new residences in the area of Yonge and Eglinton over the next 15 years, the size of a top 100 town in Canada. Traffic will consequently get worse than it already is. Buses would be an absolute nightmare.

Mind you at current it isn't rare to see a line of 7 buses on Eglinton in rush hour with a good 4-5 of them at capacity and the other two getting there.
 
And as discussed in the Midtown thread, we are expecting an additional 23,000 new residences in the area of Yonge and Eglinton over the next 15 years, the size of a top 100 town in Canada. Traffic will consequently get worse than it already is. Buses would be an absolute nightmare.

Mind you at current it isn't rare to see a line of 7 buses on Eglinton in rush hour with a good 4-5 of them at capacity and the other two getting there.

Yeah it's amazing seeing the parade of buses at Yonge & Eglinton. That's why I'm happy that the LRT will use 2-car LRV trains that will be expandable to 3 if needed.
 
It will be much faster than the current local buses:

Evidence suggests not... Round trips during AM peak for St. Clair after the ROW only went down by 8 minutes, so the maximum time savings riders saw was 4 minutes if they were riding the entire line. I was only quoting the widely available figures for average speeds, you're free to disagree with them.

-the current buses always get stuck in rush hour traffic, LRT is immune. Traffic will only get worse in this city.

It's actually pretty rare for buses to get "stuck" in traffic.

-when the bus is busy people get off every stop, it takes a long time to get people to pay their fare and go up the stairs, so dwell time per station is long. this is made worse by the fact that the buses are completely packed

All-door-boarding/POP and longer articulated buses (both of which are apparently forth coming) would mitigate this problem. None of this is inherent to LRVs. We've just chosen not to implement it on our existing LRVs and buses.


-the bus stops have MUCH closer stop spacing than the LRT, especially the central part of Eglinton, which multiplies the delay for each stop

Again, stop spacing is independent of technology choice. You could drive a TTC bus express to Vancouver, if you wanted. That said, the surface LRT ROWs are supposed to be roughly the same stop spacing as existing bus routes, no?

Having said that, the buses perform better at night at less busy hours, since there is less traffic and it doesn't stop at every stop. Also, you're right that an enhanced bus service with the same stop spacing as the LRT would be much closer to the LRT. More more you change the bus line to be like the LRT the faster and better it gets.

It's not changing buses to be "like" LRT. Things like boarding policies, stop spacing, and such are 100% separate of vehicle choice. We've chosen to run our existing surface routes (including our LRV fleet) in a horrendously inefficient way.

TheTigerMaster said:
It includes both peak and off-peak travel times. So that 18km/h average bus speed includes 11PM busses running at top speed with only a few passengers on board as well as busses that run at peak usage, when most riders use the system and the busses are stuck in traffic. So this methodology obviously inflates the numbers in favour of the busses, since the light rail lines will run at a reliably 22 km/h.

Yes, as I said, mixed traffic surface vehicles would probably have higher variance than vehicles running in reserved ROWs. That said, it's probably not as high as you think. Buses are pretty rarely 'stuck' in traffic. Even if you took a Porsche 911 on an empty race track and made it stop every 400-500m for 30-60 seconds, you're average speed would end up being only 50-60km/h. Try doing that with a bus or LRV hauling hundreds of standing passengers and it's easy to see why transit vehicles can't really exceed 25km/h on local routes, even if there was no traffic or signal dwell time.

There's lots of real world evidence for this. Look at Steve Munro's analysis of routes like the 54. Peak period effects do exist, but they're usually contained to small parts of the route and modest. Or look at the evidence from St. Clair, where the ROW didn't lead to massive reductions in rush-hour vehicle speeds. Transit vehicles will tend to be slower than prevailing traffic, often even in peak times.

Further, if the issue is limited to peak hour, then the most efficient solution is most likely not new infrastructure but rather time sensitive restrictions. Judiciously enforced rush-hour bus lanes would likely have similar impacts to building LRT lines.

EDIT: Actually, a second follow on observation would be that express-local set ups could be more efficient than simply increasing station spacing a bit. For instance, add a service which would run non-stop from Finch Station to Seneca College then run local there on out. That oughta save transit riders East of the DVP ~10mins, and improve capacity utilization.
 
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Evidence suggests not... Round trips during AM peak for St. Clair after the ROW only went down by 8 minutes, so the maximum time savings riders saw was 4 minutes if they were riding the entire line. I was only quoting the widely available figures for average speeds, you're free to disagree with them.
On St Clair the stop spacing is much closer than on the Eglinton LRT, which is a key factor in speed. I believe the stop spacing on St. Clair did not change much, but the stop spacing on the Eglinton bus vs. LRT is different, LRT is much further apart.

All-door-boarding/POP and longer articulated buses (both of which are apparently forth coming) would mitigate this problem. None of this is inherent to LRVs. We've just chosen not to implement it on our existing LRVs and buses.

I totally agree that implementing those would help on the bus routes. But your claim was that the LRT won't be faster than our current buses. Our current buses don't have all door boarding and are not articulated and have extremely tight stop spacing. Even if they are articulated however, a 2-car LRV train is much longer, and a 3 car one is even longer. So per-vehicle capacity is much higher for LRVs, one driver for 60 or 90m vehicle. The other advantage is that LRVs can run in narrow tunnels like Eglinton will. There are many ways to make our current bus and streetcar lines run better.

Again, stop spacing is independent of technology choice. You could drive a TTC bus express to Vancouver, if you wanted. That said, the surface LRT ROWs are supposed to be roughly the same stop spacing as existing bus routes, no?

It's not changing buses to be "like" LRT. Things like boarding policies, stop spacing, and such are 100% separate of vehicle choice. We've chosen to run our existing surface routes (including our LRV fleet) in a horrendously inefficient way.

Agreed that stop spacing is independent of technology choice. If you took any of the LRT lines and ran buses instead of LRVs, it would be the same speed. Then it would fall under BRT.

The Eglinton LRT certainly has much wider stop spacing than the bus. However, I don't know about Sheppard or Finch, does anybody else know?
 
For comparison:
The new artic buses are 18.3 meters long, capacity of 77 passengers.
One LRV will be 30.2 meters, capacity of 163. However, these will be run in trains of 2-3 cars, so multiply that by 2-3 per train.
 
ehlow -

I think you maybe misinterpreted me. I wasn't talking specifically about the ECLRT, or at least its subway component, but rather the Finch and Sheppard LRTs and the Eglinton East surface ROW.

The Crosstown's underground portion is, in every way, a subway. It has subway costs, subway design and subway performance.

As has been pointed out extensively here before though, the surface LRT components will have route design largely similar to the surface routes they are replacing, so as to provide "local" service, with most assuming a stop spacing of 400-500m.

As for vehicle capacity, yes, you are right. LRVs can have significantly higher capacities than even articulated buses. So what, though? The only way it makes a difference is if you start reducing frequencies to compensate (e.g. 4-5 huge LRVs/hour as opposed to 20 buses/hour). The problem then becomes you're making people wait longer, slowing down their trip!
 
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