Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Lansdude]

Was that De Baermaeker speaking just now? The video is off. That was stupid. His basic argument was that seamless transit from Scarborough on to Bloor-Danforth is more important than having seven stops over three. Give up four stops to save two or three minutes in transfer time and add hundreds of millions of dollars of unsecured funding. LOL just LOL.

 

[Adjei]

The Scarborough subway should be shot down just for being a waste of money and this from a city which cries that there is no money for transit but yet is willing to spend over 3 billion dollars for a 3 stop extension just to save people a transfer.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The Scarborough subway should be shot down just for being a waste of money and this from a city which cries that there is no money for transit but yet is willing to spend over 3 billion dollars for a 3 stop extension just to save people a transfer.

Those aren't just PEOPLE you're forcing to get off one thing and get on another. Those are hardworking taxpayers, sir! Taxpayers who must go to their homes each night, burning with indignation at how everyone else in Toronto gets a transfer-free, underground ride to their front door.

Point is, have a heart!

 

[Adjei]

LOL it just boggles my mind, I mean 3 billion just to save a transfer. If the subway was the same cost at the LRT I would be fine with it but not with such a substantial increase in cost. All the positives that the subway would bring do not justify paying such a premium. As for people who like Stinz who find nothing wrong with breaking contracts in order to buy votes, the further they are away from politics in Toronto the better we will be. Why should anybody want to do any serious business with Toronto when we are showing how incompetent we are?

 

[Forgotten]

I leave it to others to pick apart the stupidity of your reply without having the common sense to ask me to clarify what I meant.

I wan't trying to compare. I was just trying to highlight that we have paid 700M$ in the past (Just as the city manager was explaining earlier) and I don't see the problem in taking a 600M$ risk for the Scarborough subway when Andy Byford of the TTC clearly stated that the numbers are there and the subway would be viable and attract more people.

The risk is acceptable to me.

Stupid emotional replies like yours is what happen when you don't take a breather for 30 seconds and ask this instead:



That's how grown up talks

Please. One is routine maintenance (replacing something that is old and on its last legs) and the other is deciding you don't just want a replacement but want granite counters, hardwood floors, an additional to the house, solar panels, a sunroof, and a pony too. The streetcar purchase was unfunded in the same sense that the next bus order is "unfunded".

 

[BurlOak]

If they are willing to borrow over 500M$ to convert to subway at the risk of losing Sheppard, why not use the 500M$ to elevate eastern Eglinton and merge it with the SRT instead?

Because they are a bunch of idiots and/or playing political games and positioning themselves for the next election is more important than spending money wisely and creating quality transit.

 

[BurlOak]

It's too bad that not one councillor saw the opportunity of tying the Scarborough Subway to the DRL. This meeting should have been about approving ongoing funding for both projects and they would both go ahead. I can even imagine Ford voting for it if it meant killing the Sheppard and Scarborough LRT's.

Using the $333M Sheppard Fed money and approving a transit tax in some form would get us on our way to predictable funding for continuous construction of a DRL and Scarbourough subway that would eventually link to Sheppard and onward to Downsview.

A big opportunity in Toronto's history was lost in this election posturing.

The best way to get the DRL is to have the ECLRT elevated over Eglinton and connected with the SRT. That way it can be sold to Scarborough that they have the option of staying on the ECLRT to uptown, transferring at Don Mills to reach downtown, or transferring at Kennedy to reach midtown. Those in lower Scarborough have a less crowded Danforth line - that also benefits those all along to Yonge. The ECLRT also provides an alternate route incase of closures or delays. East York and Downtown get a new subway line. North York gets less delays on the Yonge subway.

The worst way to get the DRL is to go with the current LRT plan. Scarborough is being forced onto the Danforth subway at Kennedy. Bloor-Yonge is more crowded and many of those same Scarberians are almost forced to make another transfer - that some (many will not do). This means the Yonge line is not relieved that much and North York and Toronto suffers. There is less reason to extend the DRL up to Eglinton so East York looses out. Toronto does get their new east-west subway line.

I would put the subway plan somewhere in between. It does eat up a fair bit of money though, and it also provides little incentive to have the DRL go to Eglinton, so I would definitively put it closer to the bad way of achieving a meaningful DRL.

 

[Solid Snake]

Please. One is routine maintenance (replacing something that is old and on its last legs) and the other is deciding you don't just want a replacement but want granite counters, hardwood floors, an additional to the house, solar panels, a sunroof, and a pony too. The streetcar purchase was unfunded in the same sense that the next bus order is "unfunded".

Wow...

The ridership is there (14000 pph)
The density is there
The extra 5 Millions trips a year is projected with subway over LRT even if you have less people in walking distance, you get more users

TTC Andy Byford said, it's viable, justified and won't lose money with the potential to avoid an SRT shutdown forcing 40 TTC bus acting as a replacement per hour per directions in the streets of Scarborough

It's the right subway and even pro LRT councillor Mihevc said so as well. He was even way more convincing than Glenn de Baeremaeker

This is not a luxury or Scarborough throwing a tantrum...The SRT has to be replaced NOW. 563M$ for subways is a reasonable expense and this time at least, they are making sure they have a plan to pay for it upfront.

The only problem here is the fiscal side of it at this point, more specifically...What will the Federal government do now.

Comparing building a subway in Scarborough to buying a pony? You're entitled to your opinions but I'll listen to the TTC numbers to make up my mind and say what I want to say over your condescending and arrogant comments.

 

[Lansdude]

I can't find a link to Byford's report. I'm curious about the empirical evidence supporting the attraction of more users to the subway. I also want to know when, if the LRT has the capacity carry the amount outlined in Byford's report, the LRT will be over capacity in the near future, and what supports those projections. Sorry, I guess I'm referring to Pennachetti's report.

 

[gweed123]

Here's my prediction for what will happen with tomorrow's vote:

The subway option will pass, but only after several provisions are added:

1) That choosing the subway option is conditional on Federal funding.
2) That if Federal funding doesn't come through, the plan of choice automatically reverts to the LRT version.

If there's one thing Toronto City Council is good at, it's making bold proclaiming statements that are so non-commital it's not even funny. They'll make decisions, as long as the buck stops with someone else.

Now having said that, here's what I would like to see happen:

Someone propose a motion that instead of extending the subway, Metrolinx study elevating Eglinton East and running the SLRT seamlessly with the ECLRT, thereby accomplishing the same goal the subway is intended to accomplish. Use the newfound willingness to raise taxes to pay for transit to get a few hundred million extra to elevate the line.

Of course, that has about as much chance of happening as a solid funding scheme for the DRL materializing tomorrow... Or of Rob Ford standing up in the Council chambers and admitting he smoked crack. Take your pick.

 

[Electrify]

Bopping in and out, this whole thing is becoming an utter mess. Both strategies have their merit, regardless of where you stand on the subway/LRT debate or whether you are pro or anti Ford. But if they were to look at changing the plan, they should have had a clear understanding of what gets changed and where the money will come from. They should have been able to swat down any concern or criticism with fine precision. This was not the case.

I'm not totally against revisiting the plans. One feature of contemporary urban planning is consistent communication with constituents to ensure you build the city that they want. Unfortunately, this also makes long term transportation infrastructure projects very difficult due to their nature.

The technology debate though is the stupidest part of the whole thing. As Jarrett Walker said when he was in Toronto, arguing technology is like arguing your favourite vowel. Scarborough residents may have wanted a subway, but that is simplifying the their demands so much that they become meaningless. What about subways do they want? The frequency? The speed? the potential for cutting out a transfer and better connection to the rest of the city? And to meet these needs do we need a subway, or could other transit modes be used?

As I've said countless times in this thread, Scarborough's city planners are perhaps most at fault. If they had focused development along the line rather than treating it as an afterthought, there would be much more political capital to keep it. Likewise such development focus could have pushed the city to buy more trains for the line and better maintain it, perhaps even extend it as well. Another benefit could be that the rest of Metro could see the benefits of elevated rail and opted for above ground rapid transit expansion at a far cheaper price and much quicker construction. Dare I say it, perhaps we could be taking the idea of an elevated DRL seriously, at fraction of the cost.

Instead, Scarborough focused its downtown around the 401 while continuing low density sprawl and essentially pretending the line didn't even exist.

 

[Lansdude]

There's a good run-down with graphs on Metro News of all places that really highlights the difference between the two proposals: http://bit.ly/13MBKqp. Or rather, the lack of difference in everything but cost and accessibility, in which the LRT is the clear winner.

As it says in the article, and as you indicate above, Electrify, the debate seems to be being waged over the usage of the word "subway". It's easy to infer, given that the mayor himself doesn't know that LRTs aren't streetcars, from comments online from people who don't know the LRT is grade separated, and what we know generally about the ignorance of the average voter, that the people in Scarborough who the mayor is supposedly listening to in large part hear the prestige and sophistication in the word "subways" and merely want the sexy option over the uncool LRT. It's like a child pestering a parent for some brand name this or that when the cheaper substitute will do just fine.

The fact-based arguments for the subway are laughable justifications for an extra billion-odd dollars in spending. Then there are the sunk costs and the time lost.

The slightly more rational people can keep pretending that walking down a flight of stairs is worth all that when pressed to make an argument, while obscuring the suitability of the LRT to the ignorant public with intentionally misleading sloganeering. Ultimately, their motivations are either political in their support of Ford, or sentimental, as De Baermaeker's plain-looking sister whimpering indicates.

 

[Rainforest]

There's a good run-down with graphs on Metro News of all places that really highlights the difference between the two proposals: http://bit.ly/13MBKqp. Or rather, the lack of difference in everything but cost and accessibility, in which the LRT is the clear winner.

The projected 15% higher ridership for the subway option is not insignificant; of course, if their model is correct.

As it says in the article, and as you indicate above, Electrify, the debate seems to be being waged over the usage of the word "subway". It's easy to infer, given that the mayor himself doesn't know that LRTs aren't streetcars, from comments online from people who don't know the LRT is grade separated, and what we know generally about the ignorance of the average voter, that the people in Scarborough who the mayor is supposedly listening to in large part hear the prestige and sophistication in the word "subways" and merely want the sexy option over the uncool LRT. It's like a child pestering a parent for some brand name this or that when the cheaper substitute will do just fine.

The fact-based arguments for the subway are laughable justifications for an extra billion-odd dollars in spending. Then there are the sunk costs and the time lost.

But people can keep pretending that walking down a flight of stairs is worth all that when pressed to make an argument, while obscuring the suitability of the LRT to the ignorant public with intentionally misleading sloganeering.

Public perception is one of the factors in transit design. You can laugh at some of those perceptions, but ignoring them can lead to costly mistakes.

My concern is that, due to the high visibility of this Scarborough transit debate, the defeat of the subway option will make it impossible to legislate any dedicated transit taxes in the near future. Voters in Scarborough and in other inner suburbs will give a boot to any pro transit tax Councillors and MPPs, seeing that as a sort of revenge in addition to the usual tax aversion. They will do that even if such voting ultimately hurts their own interests (as will be the case with DRL).

Talk of winning the battle and losing the war ...

 

[Silence&Motion]

Flaherty statement on Scarborough project calls Sheppard funding into question (Toronto Star)

“The Harper Government has set aside $333 million for a transit project or transit projects in the City of Toronto. It is not allocated to any specific project, at this time. This funding is available but we are currently waiting for proposals,” press secretary Kathleen Perchaluk said in an email. “As Minister Flaherty indicated, it is not the role of the federal government to decide on the infrastructure priorities of municipalities.”

 

[Palma]

Comparing building a subway in Scarborough to buying a pony? You're entitled to your opinions but I'll listen to the TTC numbers to make up my mind and say what I want to say over your condescending and arrogant comments.

Just like the TTC numbers they previously had to build the Sheppard subway which proved to be incorrect.

At least a councillor actually put Ford's lies of $5.00 per household for what it is - lies. I mean come on. No one in the media questioned Ford when he said taxes would rise $5.00 per household. I figured 600,000 households which means 3M per year. Thats going to get a subway? And no one called him out on that. Not even Stinz due to her sight on being mayor. Ford says the province has said they need to come to the table with a plan. How is $3M per year a plan? Its a joke.