Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kd86]

Here's my prediction for what will happen with tomorrow's vote:

The subway option will pass, but only after several provisions are added:

1) That choosing the subway option is conditional on Federal funding.
2) That if Federal funding doesn't come through, the plan of choice automatically reverts to the LRT version.

If there's one thing Toronto City Council is good at, it's making bold proclaiming statements that are so non-commital it's not even funny. They'll make decisions, as long as the buck stops with someone else.

Now having said that, here's what I would like to see happen:

Someone propose a motion that instead of extending the subway, Metrolinx study elevating Eglinton East and running the SLRT seamlessly with the ECLRT, thereby accomplishing the same goal the subway is intended to accomplish. Use the newfound willingness to raise taxes to pay for transit to get a few hundred million extra to elevate the line.

Of course, that has about as much chance of happening as a solid funding scheme for the DRL materializing tomorrow... Or of Rob Ford standing up in the Council chambers and admitting he smoked crack. Take your pick.

We share the same dream. Unfortunately I don't think anyone on Council has enough common sense to make that motion. At what point should metrolinx intervene and suggest there original 2008 plan to make Eglinton and Scarborough a fully grade separated automated line as a alternative to this mess council is currently debating about?

 

[Palma]

I cringed as Matlow sidetracked from his otherwise very good case for the Scarborough LRT by promoting the importance of the "DLR" right after De Baeremaeker whined about how people downtown get all the good stuff.

Why do these councillor pit one area against another. Its Toronto now. Until recently my son did not know what Scarborough was, all he knows is Toronto, he is 12 years old. If this is the case then the people in Etobioke should be upset for Ford focusing on Scarborough. Look at Humber Bay and the lack of transit there or still no extension to Sherway Gardens

Its the same with provincial elections and pitting Toronto against the rest of the province or Federal elections and pitting Ontario against other provinces.

 

[Lansdude]

Just like the TTC numbers they previously had to build the Sheppard subway which proved to be incorrect.

At least a councillor actually put Ford's lies of $5.00 per household for what it is - lies. I mean come on. No one in the media questioned Ford when he said taxes would rise $5.00 per household. I figured 600,000 households which means 3M per year. Thats going to get a subway? And no one called him out on that. Not even Stinz due to her sight on being mayor. Ford says the province has said they need to come to the table with a plan. How is $3M per year a plan? Its a joke.

Ford is funny here for two reasons. First, he wasn't even willing to clarify that taxes would be hiked by .25% per year for four years up to 1% in the fourth year. When asked to be explicit about this, he kept mealy-mouthing around it trying to emphasize the .25% "or a quarter of a percent, or whatever terminology you want to use" instead of directly specifying exactly what that figure meant year-over-year. Secondly, even being generous and using one million households, over four years that still comes to a pretty small portion of the expected cost (5m + 10m + 15m + 20m = 40m). So what he wasn't even willing to precisely state because of its political impact is still inadequate. He's trying to bluff his way through an awful hand.

 

[Palma]

-Ok, let's follow on that. Let's say that the money get's diverted from Sheppard, what's stopping council from using Ford taxes to make up for the 333M$ for Sheppard?

-The infrastructure program from the Feds is there and it remains to be seen what will come out of it. But first things first, council has to choose subway or LRT first before we even think of the Feds

-Ford just said that he made it clear to both the Provincial and Federal ministers that :

Thats what he is telling us. How do we really know what he told them? Oh ya, the Ford taxes. Thats like what, 3 to 5M per year with $5.00 per household, That will be another 60 years before the 333M is raised.

 

[GenerationW]

Province can shut down city tomorrow. Wynne won't because....I don't know...

Because the city doesn't need to be shut down, and because she's not an idiot.

It's too bad that not one councillor saw the opportunity of tying the Scarborough Subway to the DRL. This meeting should have been about approving ongoing funding for both projects and they would both go ahead. I can even imagine Ford voting for it if it meant killing the Sheppard and Scarborough LRT's.

Unfortunately, I don't see Ford ever voting for transit taxes on that grand a scale. He's desperate enough for a new subway on his resume heading into 2014 to ally himself with his "backstabbing" TTC Chair, but he sounded like he was forced at gunpoint when talking about a measly $5 (maybe $6!) tax hike for this subway. Some of his loyal fans are already calling him a traitor.

And the fact no one tried to use this debate to advance the DRL says something about how our so-called highest priority is really perceived by Council.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

My concern is that, due to the high visibility of this Scarborough transit debate, the defeat of the subway option will make it impossible to legislate any dedicated transit taxes in the near future. Voters in Scarborough and in other inner suburbs will give a boot to any pro transit tax Councillors and MPPs, seeing that as a sort of revenge in addition to the usual tax aversion. They will do that even if such voting ultimately hurts their own interests (as will be the case with DRL).

Talk of winning the battle and losing the war ...

Except that by funding the BD extension via property tax increase likely preempts discussion around new revenue tools - how likely do you think that they will support them after their subway is in the bag?

AoD

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Because the city doesn't need to be shut down, and because she's not an idiot.

Unfortunately, I don't see Ford ever voting for transit taxes on that grand a scale. He's desperate enough for a new subway on his resume heading into 2014 to ally himself with his "backstabbing" TTC Chair, but he sounded like he was forced at gunpoint when talking about a measly $5 (maybe $6!) tax hike for this subway. Some of his loyal fans are already calling him a traitor.

And the fact no one tried to use this debate to advance the DRL says something about how our so-called highest priority is really perceived by Council.

Well pat your self on the back then, seeing as this came up a grand total of 4 days ago, maybe people thought to focus on the issue at hand?

 

[BurlOak]

Now having said that, here's what I would like to see happen:

Someone propose a motion that instead of extending the subway, Metrolinx study elevating Eglinton East and running the SLRT seamlessly with the ECLRT, thereby accomplishing the same goal the subway is intended to accomplish. Use the newfound willingness to raise taxes to pay for transit to get a few hundred million extra to elevate the line.

They are like the 3 little pigs deciding between the straw house or the wood house.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually, a proper analogy would be they're like 3 pigs try to decide whether to get a stove, a fridge or a wide-screen TV while the house doesn't get built. I will let you figure out what the house is analogous to.

AoD

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Here's my prediction for what will happen with tomorrow's vote:

The subway option will pass, but only after several provisions are added:

1) That choosing the subway option is conditional on Federal funding.
2) That if Federal funding doesn't come through, the plan of choice automatically reverts to the LRT version.

You're probably right. And in the meantime, all the work will stop. For 6 months? 9 months? Until after the 2014 election? Who knows. And no one will even learn a lesson from that. Maybe Tim Hudak gets elected before the end of the year and (because he's ALL ABOUT subways!) the project gets rolling after a delay of only 6 months or so. Time will tell.

Personally, I'm just hoping for a repeat of the mayor's explanation of how 1 divided by 4 is .25 (I think if anyone mentioned compounding his head would explode) and his utter inability to comprehend that $5 x 1 million households = $5 million x 4 years =$20 million=virtually the same as nothing when it comes to building this subway extension.

Really, there are great intelligent people on this board who can debate the merits of LRT vs. subway. But the issue here is well past what the most viable technology is. This is 100% about parochialism and 2014 positioning. I really don't care what they build in Scarborough if it works and gets built soon. They've already missed Pan-Am and now I'm starting to wonder if they can get something done for the Expo 2025 bid. Sigh.

 

[kEiThZ]

I barely bother commenting on here anymore, because people seem far too ideologically wedded to their positions to be flexible. And quite frankly it doesn't seem like anybody actually cares about real-life commuters.

Realistically, the Sheppard East LRT really isn't needed if the subway is extended to McCowan/Sheppard. That station will absorb most of the ridership from Agincourt and Malvern. This leaves only riders West of Kennedy heading to Don Mills or any riders going uptown or midtown. Metrolinx and the TTC really need to review the demand case for SELRT under this scenario. I can't see LRT being needed if the subway reaches up there.

I have no issues with LRT being built on Sheppard. And in the long run, I'd support it if the Sheppard subway can eventually be converted to LRT, with the goal of extending the LRT past Downsview to Weston. But if it's a matter of priority, I don't see why SELRT funds shouldn't be diverted for now. That LRT is still largely a replacement for bus service at the end of the day, and the subway stop will dramatically cut short the bus rides for lots of peak riders.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Those aren't just PEOPLE you're forcing to get off one thing and get on another. Those are hardworking taxpayers, sir! Taxpayers who must go to their homes each night, burning with indignation at how everyone else in Toronto gets a transfer-free, underground ride to their front door.

Point is, have a heart!

A heavy rail subway will have only three (3) stations vs. a light rail with seven (7) stations. People will still have to transfer to and from buses, but with more stations available with light rail, there is more likely a closer walking distance if they live close to a station.

In addition, the light rail can be more easily extended with even more stations.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz:

I think the major issue is SRT is being debated as a one off without broader discussion on what the city needs and how the city will fund those needs. I have no issue with SRT getting converted into subway - I have every issue with moving funds from one pot to another, pasting it all together with some perfunctory property tax increase (with the likelihood that it will preempt everything else) and calling it a fait accompli. That outcome does everyone a disservice. As Byford has said (and we have noted even earlier) - BD extension will increase pressure on Yonge-Bloor and pretty much necessitates BD signal upgrades - and yet we don't include that in the current discussion - much less raising funds to deal with both. That suggest something is amiss in the debate.

AoD

 

[SJD_Toronto]

I think the subway vote will be passed, but from the sounds of it, it'll pass with 24 or 25 votes.

 

[bobbob911]

AoD, it does appear at this point the motion will be voted on with a stipulation that Sheppard LRT funds are not to be used - extra funding from the feds is required.

To your point about needing a broader conversation - with these dummies, the narrower the conversation the better. Otherwise you have Thumbs piling on with his Finch subway, and Pasternak looking for his North York line, etc etc, and the whole conversation grinds to a mind numbing halt.