Canadian patriotism... Or lack of...

[cacruden]

I find this thread to be actually quite surprising. I have no shortage of friends originating from asian countries, and all I would consider "patriotic". Being a patriotic Canadian is not a "zero sum game", it does not depend on you disavowing your heritage, and it does not require people not to have regional pride (i.e. Maritimer). I find that viewpoint to be very arrogant.

On a slightly different note:

I find that sometimes Americans and Canadians can be overly simplistic and arrogant in their views... treating other countries like they are lower - asking when (i.e. as opposed to whether they have considered it) they are going to become a citizen instead of a resident. It is not necessarily an easy decision for them because in a number of cases they must relinquish their other citizenship for legal reasons. If you moved to a new country and to gain local citizenship you must relinquish your citizenship, do you not think it would be a difficult decision?

 

[MisterF]

Some Canadian nationalistic tendencies embrassass me, like anti-Americanism for no reason (e.g. hostility to the concept of a shared border/perimeter security, the existence of the CRTC which is basically to keep Americans out of Canadian culture, etc).

Opposition to a shared border/perimiter security is not anti-American, and it has very good reasons that have been pointed out in the Pearson bedlam thread. Every country has an equivalent to the CRTC, and most of them are much more strict with their content rules. If these things embarass you then you'd be embarassed to live anywhere in the world.

I was born in Britain, moved to Canada, consider myself both a Brit and a Canuck, same queen on the money, more or less same parliamentary, legal and financial systems. I'm patriotic for the entire package.

I've often wondered though if kids born in Canada to immigrants from some of the booming economies like India somehow feel lost. Surely they must feel that has to be more to life and culture than a big house in Brampton and stripmalls. If I was of Indian descent, born in Canada, I'd be getting my university education in Canada and then moving to India to live my culture in a booming economy.

People whose parents come from another country don't automatically have a strong connection to that country. If you were of Indian descent, Canada would be your culture and India would seem very foreign. Immigrating to India would be no easier or more welcoming to them than to you or me. As a child of Czech immigrants, the idea of moving to the Czech Republic (a relatively rich western country - much less foreign to a Canadian than India) to "live in my culture" is just bizarre.

 

[LAz]

If I was of Indian descent, born in Canada, I'd be getting my university education in Canada and then moving to India to live my culture in a booming economy.

India and many such countries are still in big shit. India may be booming, but they have hundreds of millions of people who live on like less than two dollars a day. They still even have a tier system, or ugh, I forget what it's called... ah yes, a cast system.

I am confident that many immigrants do not even come to canada because they love the nation. Sure as hell my parents didn't give a damn about where they fled -canada or switzerland, or some other place... it was a matter of who let them go in order to get out of yugoslavia. I think it's similar like that with other immigrants. The offspring of these sometimes get assimilated quite well... I might not be the best example as I am still fluent in the mother tongue, but I am still nowhere near as pure in the old culture as people from there would be... but on the other hand almost all my friends with whom i grew up with do not even speak the mother tongue no more. I think that this is what canadian identity should be about, to promote a sort of united identity. It can be done. People do feel canadian. I think that this identity is mainly fostered by calling us americans... and the backlash that this would create.


Also, I think that is difficult to create united nationalism with people across cultures. Suppose we go to vancouver... I read in an old natinoal geographic of about 15 years ago... some guy in the article said that he is not fond of how the chinese at the golf courses do not speak english, but chinese, how the landscape changed. I feel that this is a serious problem. I think that immigrants should be assimilated.
However, no matter how hard assimilation is pushed, the non-whites will almost always stand out. Over a hundred years have passed in the US and the blacks are still more or less second class citizens that live in ghettos. Those who are not white have a difficult time. Many are professionals which helps their condition, but still, it's rough for them. Maybe we are not a WASP society, but traditionally whites dominate pretty much everything. I imagine the canadian identity of being of people from european origin. No offense to the colored folk... I feel bad for them, because white racism is not going away no matter how hard we try to remedy that.

As a child of Czech immigrants, the idea of moving to the Czech Republic (a relatively rich western country - much less foreign to a Canadian than India) to "live in my culture" is just bizarre.

I think that almost every eastern european country is a notch down from the western european countries. The czech republic was always ahead of the other eastern european ones, but still, they're a notch down from western europe.

 

[GenerationW]

ah yes, a cast system.

I think that almost every eastern european country is a notch down from the western european countries. The czech republic was always ahead of the other eastern european ones, but still, they're a notch down from western europe.

That would be caste system.

Aside from the obvious fact that many of them were dragged down by communism, how exactly are eastern European countries a "notch down" from western ones?

 

[MisterF]

I think that almost every eastern european country is a notch down from the western european countries. The czech republic was always ahead of the other eastern european ones, but still, they're a notch down from western europe.

It's not as rich as Canada, but Czech living standards aren't much lower than ours (and higher than most of Eastern Europe). I saw a lot of the country considering the short time I was there, and I found myself being surprised at how well off it was. Certainly a far cry from the stories I was told as a kid of babushkas lining up for bread. The country has come a long way in 20 years.

 

[cacruden]

same queen on the money

Actually, technically.... not true. It might be the same person, but not the same Queen. The Queen on Canadian currency is the Queen of Canada, the Queen on UK currency is the Queen of the United Kingdom....

I think many people have lost site of what patriotism is, it is love of one's country.... not a language, not a specific culture, not to an ethnic group, not to status quo, not to the money, but to one's country. It does not preclude any of the above either.

 

[jn_12]

Very much related to what it is to be Canadian and patriotism:
http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/story/?id=304990

How often does 2/5ths of a country watch the same event?
I wonder what the audience will be in Vancouver if we make the Gold Medal game? If 12.3 million people will watch teenagers play, could that number be doubled in February?

 

[waterloowarrior]

Very much related to what it is to be Canadian and patriotism:
http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/story/?id=304990

How often does 2/5ths of a country watch the same event?
I wonder what the audience will be in Vancouver if we make the Gold Medal game? If 12.3 million people will watch teenagers play, could that number be doubled in February?

Every year at the Superbowl... the 2008 Superbowl had 143 million watching at some point, 47% of the population. Better to look at average viewership for comparison, which for the World Junior final was 5.3 million (peak 7.5). Still very impressive, although it uses a different rating/viewership system than many previous events (the new rating system gives higher values for sporting events)

The 2002 Gold Medal had an average viewship of 10.25 million viewers (peak 12.6 million).... and that was based on the old rating system!

 

[GenerationW]

Very much related to what it is to be Canadian and patriotism:
http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/story/?id=304990

How often does 2/5ths of a country watch the same event?
I wonder what the audience will be in Vancouver if we make the Gold Medal game? If 12.3 million people will watch teenagers play, could that number be doubled in February?

I guess this event makes Canadian more patriotic:

Here's a shocker. The Saskatchewan Roughriders last-second loss to the Montreal Alouettes in the Grey Cup was a ratings bonanza.
This is what the network sent out earlier:
GREY CUP Thriller Delivers a Record Audience of 6.1 Million Viewers on TSN and RDS
• –2009 GREY CUP is the most-watched program on Canadian television this year –
•– TSN sets a network audience record with 5.087 million viewers for classic game –
•– 1.009 million viewers watch the Alouettes win on RDS –
Toronto, ON (November 30, 2009) – It was a GREY CUP classic and now it’s a GREY CUP record. More Canadians watched the GREY CUP last night on TSN and RDS than ever before. Preliminary overnight data from BBM Canada confirms that 6.1 million viewers watched last night’s thrilling CFL championship game – making it the most-watched GREY CUP ever* as well as the most-watched telecast of the year in Canada**.
More than 14 million Canadians, or nearly 43% of the country’s population, watched the game in whole or in part. An incredible 8.35 million viewers were watching the broadcast at 9:49 p.m. ET on TSN and RDS as Montreal kicker Damon Duval converted his second game-winning field-goal attempt as timed expired.
The combined TSN and RDS audience for 2009 GREY CUP surpasses the previous combined Grey Cup audience high of 5.2 million set in 2002 by 16%.
TSN’s GREY CUP audience of 5.087 million becomes the highest audience ever recorded for the network, surpassing the 2009 IIHF World Junior Championship Gold Medal game that attracted 3.7 million viewers on TSN earlier this year. RDS’ French broadcast attracted over one million viewers. The broadcast on RDS surpassed all conventional television audiences on a competitive Sunday night in the French market.

 

[cacruden]

Now watching football or hockey apparently is a requirement by some to demonstrate ones patriotism

 

[jn_12]

^No one said you had to watch to be patriotic. But it's a pretty good example of people across this country being enamored by the same thing and it's a fantastic indication of what creates a common bond across this country. Whether you like it or not, sport (moreso hockey than any other) unites this country like it unites most others. There's no reason to resent that.

generationw and waterloo warrior:
I was well aware of the success of the Grey Cup and Super Bowl, and the new PPMs used to measure audiences. If only they were in place in 2002. I still find it hard to believe 60% of the country didn't watch that game at all, so hopefully we'll get some accurate figures this time around.

 

[drone]

I'm Canadian, born here, parents born here. I'm not all patriotic. I don't feel an affinity to any sports team or flag or whatever. I don't really care if others see themselves as Canadian...as long as my family and I are happy, we'll move ANYWHERE we can to have the least hassle, the most for our work and the best lifestyle we can...that's it. Whether that's Canada, Toronto or anywhere else, it doesn't matter to me. I'm sure many new immigrants feel the same way. If I moved to China, I would still be North American in my thoughts, food, etc...but, I would never think of myself as Chinese. Not because I don't respect their culture etc...I see myself as a person, not a Canadian, Chinese, Catholic, etc....

 

[BMO]

I've noticed this alot especially with immigrants from Europe. My grandparents/ mother are from Spain, and during the world-cup they would cheer on Spain, but if ever Spain played Canada, they would cheer fro Canada 100%. My grandparents live in a russian neighbourhood in Toronto, and were disgusted when they saw russian-canadians cheering on the streets for beating Canada in a hockey game, I believe it was in Turin a few years back.

On the other hand I work at the CN tower, and I often ask guests where they are from, and more often then not, the south-asian tourists would identify themselves as Canadian rather than Indian, Pakistani, etc.

 

[jenny_zhang]

I was born in Britain, moved to Canada, consider myself both a Brit and a Canuck, same queen on the money, more or less same parliamentary, legal and financial systems. I'm patriotic for the entire package.

I've often wondered though if kids born in Canada to immigrants from some of the booming economies like India somehow feel lost. Surely they must feel that has to be more to life and culture than a big house in Brampton and stripmalls. If I was of Indian descent, born in Canada, I'd be getting my university education in Canada and then moving to India to live my culture in a booming economy.

Maybe *gasp* children of immigrants identify with Canada, where they have lived their entire lives, than a foreign nation they've heard through the stories of their parents?

But I suppose we should all buy into Beez' childish idea of bloodline nostalgia for people's ancestral homes. And his true message, which is that as a British immigrant, he has a birthright to immigrate to Canada and everyone else is a fake.

 

[TrickyRicky]

To reiterate what I said in my last post: As soon as patriotism becomes about caring what the other guy thinks and feels, it suddenly becomes a negative force. If you want to sway sentiment or have people follow your example, lead. Feel strongly about your country and express this sentiment.