gristle
Senior Member
Given that, at tops, 120,000 aboriginal children attended residential schools in Canada from 1880 to 1970, you are suggesting that half died.
Just a tad curious where you got that number.
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Canadian patriotism... Or lack of...
- Thread starter tkip
- Start date
Given that, at tops, 120,000 aboriginal children attended residential schools in Canada from 1880 to 1970, you are suggesting that half died.
Just a tad curious where you got that number.
GenerationW
Senior Member
It's one thing for a Canadian-born kid to cheer for a sports team from his parents' homeland, but it's another thing to cheer for that team against a Canadian team, to the point of booing Canada or even getting way overzealous and burning a Canadian flag (as happened on at least one occasion in the past).
I'll cheer for the 'old country' against all other countries, but never against Canada.
I'll cheer for the 'old country' against all other countries, but never against Canada.
toraerach
Active Member
I would argue that there is a latent pseudo-nationalism to the Canadian people (of all backgrounds) that we might hesitate to identify as patriotism for fear of equating it with beer commercial patriotism, or (even worse) dead-American-presidents-hawking-used-cars patriotism. Patriotism, as we've experienced as a people in its most obvious forms, is just plain tacky. The "support our troops or stand in front of them" crowd doesn't really help either.
adma
Superstar
Remember that a whole lot of Canadians likely didn't even have an ingrained notion of what "The Maple Leaf Forever" sounded like until a rocked-up rendition occured in a Molson Canadian commercial a decade ago...
jn_12
Senior Member
1986.
And, anyone who knows anything about Canadian soccer knows that we have a talented team capable of qualifying for a world cup (simply look at how we do in the Gold Cup). Unfortunately the CSA is a horribly run organization that essentially sabotaged our chances at making next year's World Cup. I have a lot of hope for 2014 though.
Perhaps Italian or Portuguese Canadians would be cheering against Canada. I don't know. I'd imagine there would be some conflicting emotions and more of a celebration of the fact that its a win-win situation.
GenerationW
Senior Member
The Gold Cup is nice but relatively meaningless. It's World Cup qualifying which reveals the true quality of CONCACAF. Gold Cup successes have obviously not translated at all to WCQ, and if anything we've regressed.
IMO Canada hasn't had a World Cup worthy side since the 1994 qualifying campaign, and I see little reason for hope in 2014.
IMO Canada hasn't had a World Cup worthy side since the 1994 qualifying campaign, and I see little reason for hope in 2014.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
I'm going to bring it back to the original comment and say the Staffard Show is utter mind poison. I'm not saying this from an idiological perspective. I'm speaking about the nature of the discussion rather than it's content.
Canadian Patriotism: I think the more important question is if this question gets you emotional why is that the case? Why is it important to you that others experience living here in the same fashion you do? I don't know the answer to this question. However, if patriotism means distrusting, thinking negatively of those who do not share your world outlook, if it means feeling used or taken advantage of or superior to others, than patriotism should be utterly banished. It is a monsterous force.
However if patriotism means coming together, feeling good and confident about yourself and your place in the world. If it helps you personally to be motivated to contribute towards a common goal, it is a most worthy force. Notice however how I use "your". As soon as this is about some one else, about what the other guy thinks or does not thinkm, it suddenly becomes negative again.
Canadian Patriotism: I think the more important question is if this question gets you emotional why is that the case? Why is it important to you that others experience living here in the same fashion you do? I don't know the answer to this question. However, if patriotism means distrusting, thinking negatively of those who do not share your world outlook, if it means feeling used or taken advantage of or superior to others, than patriotism should be utterly banished. It is a monsterous force.
However if patriotism means coming together, feeling good and confident about yourself and your place in the world. If it helps you personally to be motivated to contribute towards a common goal, it is a most worthy force. Notice however how I use "your". As soon as this is about some one else, about what the other guy thinks or does not thinkm, it suddenly becomes negative again.
jn_12
Senior Member
How have we regressed? I agree what the Gold Cup is meaningless but it at least suggests that we have talent and if not for a couple horribly bad calls by refs in the last two we'd have been in the finals. I saw this team play two qualifiers live and I watched every away game. The 2010 WCQ squad was good enough. They had two of the most talented players in CONCACAF and I'd argue could compete with every team other than the Americans and the Mexicans. Mitchell was perhaps the worst manager the CSA could have picked and he was simply outclassed, even against minnows. The CSA didn't help matters by screwing up our home dates, practically giving Honduras a hometown crowd in Montreal and turning their back on the Canadian supporters. Fact is, we have enough talent but also an incredibly underachieving side, combined with the politics of the CSA which doesn't help.
I think 2014 will be tough to make only because our key players will be that much older, but we have some good up and coming players that we shouldn't rule out.
GenerationW
Senior Member
Definition of regression for the Canadian men's national soccer team (since 1994):
98 World Cup qualifying - finished last (out of six) in final group
02 - finished 3rd (out of 4) in semi-final group
06 - finished last (out of 4) in semi-final group with 5 points in 6 games
10 - finished last (out of 4) in semi-final group with 2 points in 6 games
Results don't lie, and excuses are just excuses.
PukeGreen
Active Member
Soccer aside, I have never seen much evidence that newer Canadians are less patriotic than the rest of us. In fact, immigrants have made the ultimate vote of confidence in Canada by choosing to move here. If anything, it's those of us who were born here who find it easy to take for granted what we have.
Regarding the radio talk show, I think it is very easy for many people to underestimate how difficult it is to fit into another country and absorb its language and customs. I didn't travel much outside of Canada until I was in my late 20s and it gave me a new appreciation for how hard it is to be in a country where everything is strange, where you have a hard time communicating, and where you continually find yourself in situations where your intelligence and confidence are challenged because you can't communicate as well as you could back home. I found this as a visitor; I can only imagine moving permanently would be much harder.
Once away, the sports and culture of your home country can become a very important emotional refuge. A fondness for the foods or sports of the home country is not dangerous, it's normal. So these talk show callers who expect all immigrants to immediately "learn English", forget about soccer and start cheering vehemently for sports teams playing games they don't understand are being a bit unreasonable.
I think it's safe to assume that most first-generation immigrants will always have one foot in the old country, unless they arrive here very young. Their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. will be as Canadian as anyone.
And personally, I find 90% of Canadian "nationalism" insulting, revolving around trivial symbols and embarassing anti-Americanism that makes us seem petty and insecure. I can live without that sort of beer commercial nationalism which to me is meaningless at best and destructive at worst. Let's scrap that superficial "Maple Leaf sticker on my bumper" nationalism in favour of real behaviour Canadians can be proud of: such as, for example, being compassionate and accepting of immigrants as real people rather than portraying them as cartoonish ingrates out to mooch off our hard-earned wealth, which frankly stinks of plain ol' racism to me. Instead of ranting about immigrants watching soccer, why not expand our own horizons and watch a new sport? Multiculturalism is a two-way street.
Regarding the radio talk show, I think it is very easy for many people to underestimate how difficult it is to fit into another country and absorb its language and customs. I didn't travel much outside of Canada until I was in my late 20s and it gave me a new appreciation for how hard it is to be in a country where everything is strange, where you have a hard time communicating, and where you continually find yourself in situations where your intelligence and confidence are challenged because you can't communicate as well as you could back home. I found this as a visitor; I can only imagine moving permanently would be much harder.
Once away, the sports and culture of your home country can become a very important emotional refuge. A fondness for the foods or sports of the home country is not dangerous, it's normal. So these talk show callers who expect all immigrants to immediately "learn English", forget about soccer and start cheering vehemently for sports teams playing games they don't understand are being a bit unreasonable.
I think it's safe to assume that most first-generation immigrants will always have one foot in the old country, unless they arrive here very young. Their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. will be as Canadian as anyone.
And personally, I find 90% of Canadian "nationalism" insulting, revolving around trivial symbols and embarassing anti-Americanism that makes us seem petty and insecure. I can live without that sort of beer commercial nationalism which to me is meaningless at best and destructive at worst. Let's scrap that superficial "Maple Leaf sticker on my bumper" nationalism in favour of real behaviour Canadians can be proud of: such as, for example, being compassionate and accepting of immigrants as real people rather than portraying them as cartoonish ingrates out to mooch off our hard-earned wealth, which frankly stinks of plain ol' racism to me. Instead of ranting about immigrants watching soccer, why not expand our own horizons and watch a new sport? Multiculturalism is a two-way street.
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Cooool
Active Member
I think people should be grateful to live in a great country like Canada and should express it from time to time. And I know many immigrants who do.
What annoys me is when a newly arrived immigrant claims their home country is so much better than Canada. I remember this one guy told me back home in Pakistan things were a lot better. I tried not to snicker.
What annoys me is when a newly arrived immigrant claims their home country is so much better than Canada. I remember this one guy told me back home in Pakistan things were a lot better. I tried not to snicker.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I don't know about you guys, but I've been feeling more Canadian than ever since the middle of the decade. I think that Canada is still developing it's identity. First, we were just a rather large arm of Britain. Then, we're the children of the USA. I think that this century will see us forge our own identity and national significance. Of course, it'll take some good leaders to get things done and, while people say population doesn't matter, we should probably allow more immigrants in to boost our workforce and ethnic, cultural and skill diversity.
I think that a combination of gradually becoming more and more anti-American coming out of the cold war, and especially after Bush; and the 2010 olympics have created a perfect but simple catalyst for a new feeling of national identity and unity. Anyone else getting that feeling?
I think that a combination of gradually becoming more and more anti-American coming out of the cold war, and especially after Bush; and the 2010 olympics have created a perfect but simple catalyst for a new feeling of national identity and unity. Anyone else getting that feeling?
SP!RE
°°°°°°
Nationalism of any type (for any country) has been the root of most evils in world history, including the worst wars and genocides we know of.
Therefore, nationalism, or the romanticized term "patriotism" (which roughly equates to loving your country above others and being considered treasonous if you don't agree with every policy within your country and blindly follow*), is something I can do without.
*In the USA, the Dixie Chicks speaking out against their own president and being boycotted. In Canada, speaking out against our foreign policy and war efforts in the middle east and being told you're a bad citizen as a result. I refuse to blindly follow. I am THANKFUL for what I have in Canada, but I do not hold it above other countries or facets of my identity as supreme and faultless.
Therefore, nationalism, or the romanticized term "patriotism" (which roughly equates to loving your country above others and being considered treasonous if you don't agree with every policy within your country and blindly follow*), is something I can do without.
*In the USA, the Dixie Chicks speaking out against their own president and being boycotted. In Canada, speaking out against our foreign policy and war efforts in the middle east and being told you're a bad citizen as a result. I refuse to blindly follow. I am THANKFUL for what I have in Canada, but I do not hold it above other countries or facets of my identity as supreme and faultless.
Dan416
Senior Member
Some Canadian nationalistic tendencies embrassass me, like anti-Americanism for no reason (e.g. hostility to the concept of a shared border/perimeter security, the existence of the CRTC which is basically to keep Americans out of Canadian culture, etc).
I was born here, but I'll always be Polish. It doesn't change how long someone's lived here, you can't expect them to deny that. I don't fault anyone for identifying more with their home culture. Regardless, the children of immigrants will always feel more Canadian.
Even if they marry people within their own culture, you can't stop the kids from being Canadian. And most people will marry outside their own culture, so you get hyphenated ethnicities. E.g. my ex-bf was 1/8 Chinese, half-Irish, 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 German. My brother's gf is 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Vietnamese, 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Irish (IIRC). How can people like that be anything but Canadian? The fractions will get so diluted over the generations that the whole population of Canada is going to be an amalgam of mixed-race people. No one group will be dominant, but our culture will probably solidify over the years and will be the only thing to bind Canada together, since race and religion won't.
I was born here, but I'll always be Polish. It doesn't change how long someone's lived here, you can't expect them to deny that. I don't fault anyone for identifying more with their home culture. Regardless, the children of immigrants will always feel more Canadian.
Even if they marry people within their own culture, you can't stop the kids from being Canadian. And most people will marry outside their own culture, so you get hyphenated ethnicities. E.g. my ex-bf was 1/8 Chinese, half-Irish, 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 German. My brother's gf is 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Vietnamese, 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Irish (IIRC). How can people like that be anything but Canadian? The fractions will get so diluted over the generations that the whole population of Canada is going to be an amalgam of mixed-race people. No one group will be dominant, but our culture will probably solidify over the years and will be the only thing to bind Canada together, since race and religion won't.
junctionist
Senior Member
That's not entirely true. Racist nationalism and the belief in racial hierarchies has led to those worst wars and genocides. The operative word being racist. Nationalism means a perceived community of people linked by culture that prides itself in its achievements. It doesn't have to be hostile to other communities.