Brampton Transit/Zum

[doady]

This new fad of having one transit system for upper class and other for lower class is just dumb.

Look at YRT's historic ridership and you will see VIVA has actually down YRT's ridership growth considerably, rather than accelerate ridership growth as was expected. I would hate to see Brampton Transit going down the same path (that said, Zum is a far superior plan to VIVA, so who knows)

A "premium" serivce would still be reliant on the "regular" service. They cannot be disconnected. So the notion that a premium bus service can attract choice riders and the regular bus service cannot is just foolish.

 

[RedRocket191]

I was unaware that Zum would be restricted to upper class citizens...

 

[lead82]

Or Viva for that matter. I don't follow your logic in that Viva pulled down YRT service. In fact, Viva has greatly increased service to levels unheard of in York Region, and ridership growth has been fantastic.

Did Viva take customers from the regular service along Routes 1 and 99, sure, but that's because Viva is more convenient, and offers a better ride quality and faster travel time.

Why do you feel that Viva is for upper class? Do they check people which class they are on at the door? Does it cost a premium to ride Viva?

 

[doady]

Again you if you look the the ridership growth, it has slow down since VIVA started.

And yes, YRT was reduced after VIVA was introduced, but I wasn't referrign to that.

I was unaware that Zum would be restricted to upper class citizens...

Did I say it was?

 

[RedRocket191]

Did I say it was?

This new fad of having one transit system for upper class and other for lower class is just dumb.

Care to cite the exam you're talking about? Or should I apologize for making the reasonable assumption that your post was about the topic we're discussing?

 

[lead82]

To me YRT/Viva is one system. Viva is more of a express branch of YRT. Therefore, we should put the growth numbers together. Regular YRT growth may not be as fast, but Viva has grown leaps and bounds. YRT is not able to grow fast because the service it provides is generally very poor. Buses on 30-60min headways is not a service most people are willing to take, especially in York Region, where every family has access to at least 2 cars. Viva on the other hand is proving to be quite successful at getting people to leave their cars at home.

To me that is a success, and what transit should be doing, and that is grabbing non-captive riders and reducing congestion. If you consider that 'upper' class riders, then so be it, but the service is certainly not limited to a specific class, since the improvement is for everyone.

 

[TOareaFan]

I sense this project is p'ing people off!

Since the vast majority of residents in the small (500k) 'burb I have chosen to live in don't even read the local paper, there is no awareness of what the heck is going on on Queen Street from Centre to Rutherford.

All they know is that the road has been torn up (again) and that it is making an already congested stretch of road unbearable and is threatening the very survival of some businesses.

In a very small sample set (conversations with about 10 people or so) I could not find one person (other than me who was posing the question) that actually knew what all the mess/work was for!

Some PR work is needed....and fast I think....sort of a Zum PR job!

 

[doady]

To me YRT/Viva is one system. Viva is more of a express branch of YRT. Therefore, we should put the growth numbers together. Regular YRT growth may not be as fast, but Viva has grown leaps and bounds.

Sigh, when I said YRT, I meant including VIVA. They try to make it seem like separate systems, but I know better.

YRT expected 17.5 million riders for 2006 but got 17 million instead. And for 2008 they had forecasted over 22 million, but they have not even reached 19 million yet. Far short of expectations.

YRT Ridership

2002 - 8.6 million
2003 - 10.2 million (+18%)
2004 - 13.8 million (+14%)
2005 - 15.2 million (+11%)
2006 - 17.1 million (+11%)
2007 - 18.2 million (+7%)
2008 - 18.8 million (+3%)

I don't know about you, but I think I see a declining trend in growth since VIVA (2005).

YRT is not able to grow fast because the service it provides is generally very poor. Buses on 30-60min headways is not a service most people are willing to take, especially in York Region, where every family has access to at least 2 cars.

And therein lies the problem.

 

[Disparishun]

YRT Ridership

2002 - 8.6 million
2003 - 10.2 million (+18%)
2004 - 13.8 million (+14%)
2005 - 15.2 million (+11%)
2006 - 17.1 million (+11%)
2007 - 18.2 million (+7%)
2008 - 18.8 million (+3%)

I don't know about you, but I think I see a declining trend in growth since VIVA (2005).

I don't see that -- I see a declining trend in growth since 2003. If you want to find a causal source for that declining trend, it seems to me you'll have to dig a little bit more carefully. What did York Region's population do over the same period? What new employers came to the region during that period, or didn't? Were there any other trip generators or dampeners? Major roads opening? Is this just a case of low-hanging fruit being plucked and growth being harder to sustain as the likelist populations become saturated?

Do we really need to play the old "correlation is not causation" saw, especially when you don't even have very good correlation (i.e. rate of growth started declining since well before VIVA (2005))?

 

[kettal]

It's still not "leaps and bounds" of growth...

 

[TOareaFan]

It's still not "leaps and bounds" of growth...

But it is growth....which is good in any car dominated area.

Growth (as measured by %) will always slow unless there is some extraordinary event. Eventually the base number gets to a point that sustaining very large growth percentages is very difficult.

Example....from 2002 to 2003 they added 2.6 million riders and that equated to 18%....from 2003 to 2004 they also added 2.6 million riders but that was only 14%......measuring the percentages we would say "growth has slowed"....measuring absolute numbers you would say "they sustained a very impressive rate of growth"

 

[Dan416]

But it is growth....which is good in any car dominated area.

Growth (as measured by %) will always slow unless there is some extraordinary event. Eventually the base number gets to a point that sustaining very large growth percentages is very difficult.

Example....from 2002 to 2003 they added 2.6 million riders and that equated to 18%....from 2003 to 2004 they also added 2.6 million riders but that was only 14%......measuring the percentages we would say "growth has slowed"....measuring absolute numbers you would say "they sustained a very impressive rate of growth"

To YRT's credit, their ridership didn't decline like MT's did.

 

[doady]

I don't see that -- I see a declining trend in growth since 2003. If you want to find a causal source for that declining trend, it seems to me you'll have to dig a little bit more carefully. What did York Region's population do over the same period? What new employers came to the region during that period, or didn't? Were there any other trip generators or dampeners? Major roads opening? Is this just a case of low-hanging fruit being plucked and growth being harder to sustain as the likelist populations become saturated?

Do we really need to play the old "correlation is not causation" saw, especially when you don't even have very good correlation (i.e. rate of growth started declining since well before VIVA (2005))?

I was disputing the claim that a specially branded bus service separate from the regular bus service can get people out their cars. Obviously VIVA did not do that. The fact is ridership growth in York Region did not improve after VIVA was introduced. I think the Zum brand is pointless and a waste of money, that's all.

But it is growth....which is good in any car dominated area.

Well, MT and BT also saw ridership growth during the period, and they did not have a VIVA-like service.

The best way to look at it is ridership per capita, which takes into account the population. It is true measure of transit effectiveness.

RIDERSHIP PER CAPITA 2005-2008

[B]Year	York Region	Brampton	Mississauga[/B]
2005	16.51		22.47		39.99
2006	18.00		24.48		41.22
2007	18.54		25.76		42.48
2008	18.63		26.63		43.75

As you can see, since VIVA was introduced in late 2005, York's growth in ridership per capita has been lower either than Mississauga or Brampton. Which means it has been the least successful in actually getting people out of their cars and attracting brand new riders.

So does the specially branded premium bus concept actually work? I'll leave that up to you to decide.

To YRT's credit, their ridership didn't decline like MT's did.

So far YRT ridership has declined in by 1% in 2009 compared to 2008. Mississauga down 6% apparently though it has apparently been doing better since September. Brampton is down 2 to 3%.

Missisauga and Brampton have more industrial workers using transit so they got hit harder by the recession. They have more riders to lose in the first place.

 

[lead82]

Those numbers are very misleading. Mississauga and Brampton have much higher densities and more dense clusters like Brampton Centre and area around Sq 1. which allow for better transit. Those numbers really show that the transit usage in Peel is terrible for a region of almost 2M people. Compare this to Toronto, which has a population of 2.7M, but has 480M riders per year.

While York has 1M people, only about half of them live in area that can be served by transit, and those are areas mostly south of Hwy 7, and along Yonge. Remember, York Region as a whole is still about 60% rural, versus Peel which is now mostly built up, except for a small section around Caledon.

If we want to gage the success of Viva, you need to look at the ridership not at York Region as a whole but look at the two corridors: Yonge and Hwy7. Other that VIVA, YRT hasn't really improved their services enough to dramatically increase ridership. It's VIVA Purple and VIVA Blue that have seen ridership numbers increase in their respective corridors. I would also argue that once the BRT are up an running, ridership will increase even more. For now, VIVA is nothing more than just a comfortable express bus.

 

[hbl33]

Are there any future BRT projects taking place between Mississauga and Brampton in addition to the existing Zum plan?

I would love to see rapid transit connection along Dixie Rd.